THOR versus CONAN

What If Thor of Asgard Had Met Conan the Barbarian? (Marvel)
Where: What If? #39 When: June 1983
Why: Alan Zelenetz How: Ron Wilson

The Story So Far...
Victorious in battle with the Frost Giants of Jotunheim: Thor, God of Thunder, followed his wicked half-brother into a cavernous labyrinth. In search of the mischief-making Loki, Thor chose a path that led him backwards through time, into the realm of Troy during the Trojan War.

This was but one course of history, but what of the path not taken? In another reality, Thor chose a different tunnel, one that led him to ancient age of Hyboria! There, his memory was lost and godly powers diminished, making him prone to the wanted warrior-thief stalking Corinthia: Conan The Barbarian!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Thor 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Conan 4 (Tactician)
Speed: Draw 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Thor 6 (Generator)
Agility: Draw 2 (Average)
Fighting: Conan 7 (Living Weapon)
Energy: Thor 5 (Lasers)
Total: Thor 32 (Super)

It's a fantasy fight worthy of the greatest myths and legend! A dream battle, bridging the gulf of time and reality to pit God against Barbarian! The question is simple: What if Thor of Asgard met Conan the Cimmerian?

This is the first time we've seen Conan on The Comic Book Fight Club! His reputation precedes him, but he may not always be well represented by assumptions. Yes, Conan is a savage warrior -- but he's also a learned traveler, and incredibly canny combat strategist. Skills he'll certainly need to best a god!

Conan is stronger and more durable than most normal men, but he isn't super-human. Ordinarily that would put him at a significant disadvantage against the nigh invulnerable god of thunder, but this battle features a weakened Thor.

When Beta Ray Bill first battled the Odinson in Thor #337, he demonstrated that an evenly matched opponent could challenge Thor with pure heart and courage. Conan has plenty of both, but its unlikely the barbarian would be deemed worthy of wielding the enchanted hammer Mjolnir against Thor, as Bill was.

Mjolnir has been key to Thor winning against some other high-profile crossover opponents. The hammer's influence over lightning helped quash the pantheon of powers at Captain Marvel's disposal, in Marvel versus DC #2. He also got the drop on Superman with Mjolnir, sucker-striking him in JLA/Avengers #1!

Thor wasn't quite himself when he attacked Superman and he isn't quite himself in today's battle, either. His travel has left him weakened, but also disoriented. That could be significant, if his history with fugue states is anything to go by!

When Thor succumbed to a madness, he became a rampaging berserker who dominated many powerful challengers, including the Super-Skrull [Thor #464], and Drax The Destroyer [Warlock and The Infinity Watch #21]! There was also the Heroes Reborn pocket universe Thor, who was manipulated by Loki into fighting the entire Avengers to a standstill in Avengers (Vol.2) #1. All in all, disorientation only makes Thor a more dangerous threat. Bad news for Conan!

Conan won't hesitate to exploit Thor's apparent vulnerability, but the odds of cutting him asunder with a sword still seems remote. Without his usual strength, endurance, and command of the storm, Thor's vulnerable, but the only way we can truly know what would happen is by reading on!

The Tape: Thor Ranking: Thor (#29)

What Went Down...
Suddenly struck with an unshakeable disorientation, Thor encounters a pack of Corinthian soldiers on the hunt. Little does any of them realize, they're being watched from the mountains above by the wanted thief: Conan The Cimmerian!

A sudden hail of boulders betrays Conan's position as he uses the terrain to secure a tactical advantage against the four soldiers and Thor! The Thunderer escapes harm, but scales the mountain to confront his unseen attacker!

Conan mistakes the blonde-haired god for a contemporary of Aesir, but his lack of quarrel with those of the North doesn't interest Thor. He launches himself at the appeasing Cimmerian -- sending both tumbling down the mountain side!

The barbarian mockingly presumes madness on Thor's behalf. Only a madman would travel so far to "have his bowels carved in warmer climes!" They scramble to their feet and Conan makes the first move, aiming to oblige his new foe!

The overhead sword strike is easily blocked by Thor's hammer. He swings wildly in retaliation, completing his arc just in time to block the ducking barbarian's sword!

The verbal sparring continues as Conan swings for Thor's neck, but again strikes blade to uru metal hammer! Incensed by Conan's bravado as much as his fighting, Thor swings Mjolnir with renewed purpose - swatting the sword away!

The barbarian is disarmed, but by no means harmless! With impressive strength he hoists a massive boulder above his head and tosses it at his opponent!

Thor goes down and suffers the indignation of further taunting! Conan compares the toppled thunder god to a tortoise and stokes his godly ire! Thor leaps back to his feat and charges at Conan to grapple hand-to-hand in a test of strength!

Even with his senses dulled, Thor's godly strength is more than a match for the Cimmerian warrior. The thunderer hurls Conan wildly into surrounding rock!

The impact would devastate any ordinary man, but Conan endures, remarking in awe of the incredible strength possessed by his mysterious foe! The barbarian rises, not with aggression in his heart, but respect!

His arms hang peacefully by his sides as Conan assures Thor it is no act of treachery. With that, Thor stays his hand & hammer as well, recruited to be Conan's travelling partner. He receives a fallen Conrinthian's sword at Conan's assistance and the pair head off into a new adventure.

The Hammer...
Well, there you have it! The battle ends in a mutual ceasefire, leaving fans of each warrior to debate the merits of their combat beyond its conclusion.

There's an obvious case to be made that Thor had the advantage thanks to his superior strength. That said, Conan is also renowned for his ability to endure, and was down but far from out when Thor turned on the muscle!

Here on Secret Wars on Infinite Earths we primarily focus on the results that did happen, but if prompted to ask "What If?", I would certainly lean in favour of an eventual Thor victory. Of course, by the end of the issue, it's the weakened Thor who perishes in final battle with Stygian wizard Thoth-Amon. Not Conan!

You might scoff at the thought of Thor dying in such a way, but grim death was a traditional fixture of the What if? series, particularly into its second volume, where a 'be careful what you wish for' element to stories was common.

I was already thinking about today's battle from What If? (Vol.1) #39 thanks to the announcement that Conan The Barbarian will join the Marvel Universe in May's Savage Avengers. Imagine my surprise earlier this week when /Film also reported an animated version of What If? is in development for Disney+!

According to the story, the streaming What If? cartoon will feature branching alternate realities based on events from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. That makes it hard to imagine episodes punctuated with major hero's deaths, but you never do know! The first confirmed story will feature Loki finding the hammer of Thor, borrowing a basic concept from What If? (Vol.1) #47.

Reducing the series to Marvel's movie slate limits the scope that made What If? one of my favourite series growing up, but if it also minimizes the chance for creating cumbersome rifts within the mainstream universe. A good thing, since it's still a crapshoot whether these movies "get it right", and far too early to start subverting what's still in the process of being established.

Marvel had a library of almost two decades worth of monthly printed adventures before the concept of What If? was introduced in 1977. Even more, if you also include the Golden Age of characters like Captain America and Sub-Mariner! Granted, those stories were much less likely to be drawn from than the modern pages of the "Marvel Age", begun with 1961's Fantastic Four, who also starred in the first issue of What If?, in a reference to 1963's Amazing Spider-Man #1.

Simple ideas like Spider-man joining the Fantastic Four -- instead of being rejected -- are a lot of fun when you have a firm grasp of who the characters are. When these stories intrude upon informing an audience, that tends to erode at the core concept, damage lode baring ideas, and generally lead to sloppy and increasingly meaningless fiction.

I'm not quite sure if that's how I would view Conan The Barbarian becoming part of the Marvel Universe with Savage Avengers, but it's close.

Marvel has a long history with the pulp barbarian, who was created in 1932 for Weird Tales magazine by Robert E Howard. Marvel started publishing stories in 1970, helping usher in the modern (or bronze) age of comics. Despite all this, Conan is owned and licensed by Cabinet Entertainment -- not Marvel.

Marvel have tied some licensed characters into their shared universe before. Iron Man and SHIELD battled Godzilla. ROM Space Knight and Micronauts led superheroes and toylines to meet with some regularity, as well. Of course, in the case of ROM, I can't help but think of the years of licensing entanglements that kept collections from being reprinted. Which is one of the reasons bringing Conan into Marvel Comics proper seems like a bigger hassle than its worth.

To that point: As far as I know, "What If? Classic" collections omitted this and other issues containing Conan. That might be rectified now that the Conan license is back with Marvel, and an animated series might drive interest in reissued collections, but you need only imagine if this were a regular series to see the frustration that could lie ahead with Savage Avengers.

For my money, these type of crossovers are best released as mini-series. Isolated stories that play with the concepts, deliver dream matches, but don't overstay their welcome, damage either property, or cause long term problems.

I'm sure we'll be back to look at more from the Thor & Conan team-up. If you'd like to find more crossover dream matches, or just discover more tales from different universes - dive into the Secret Archive! There you'll find every featured fight indexed by publisher, series, and issue number!

You can also follow and subscribe to Secret Wars on Infinite Earths on Twitter and Facebook to get regular links to fights inspired by the topics of the day! Be sure to like, share, and retweet the best battles!

Winner: Inconclusive (Draw)
#29 (--) Thor
#426 (new) Conan The Barbarian

SUB-MARINER versus ATTUMA
What If... Destiny Had Not Destroyed Atlantis? (Marvel comics)
Where: What If? #41 When: October 1983
Why: Alan Zelenetz How: Marc Silvestri & Mel Candido

The story so far...
Possessing the Helmet of Power, a criminal mastermind called Destiny attempts to conquer the world, rock the undersea kingdom of Atlantis to it's very core.
Responding to the threat, Emperor Thakorr sends the avenging son, Namor, out into the field to put a stop to the attacks, but Namor is bested and has his memory stripped from him, leaving him to dwell among the surface dwellers lost and without a history.

In this world, however, the Sub-Mariner is victorious against the threat of Destiny, and while a plot of assassination and treason takes place back in Atlantis. Byrrah sets in motion his plan to seize the throne, and ultimately frames the Sub-Mariner himself for the murder of Thakorr.

Denying the will of Neptune himself, Namor enters a self-imposed exile, turning his back on a people blind enough to fall for the ploys of a corrupt dignitary.
Poetic irony sees Byrrah comes under a coup himself, set upon by the barbaric Attuma who believes himself a superior ruler to the pompous murderer.
But will Namor answer the call of his people, or turn his back forevermore?...

Previous Form:
Sub-Mariner (#27): Victories over the X-Men, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants & Dr. Dorcus.
Attuma (#244): Attuma was thwarted recently by the MODvengers.

Tale of the tape...
Strength: Sub-Mariner 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Sub-Mariner 4 (Tactician)
Speed: Draw 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Sub-Mariner 5 (Marathon Man)
Agility: Agility 3 (Acrobat)
Fighting Ability: Draw 6 (Warrior)
Energy Powers: Attuma 2 (Projectile Weapon)


I love Namor, but seriously, if you want to talk about the keys to victory, most of his villains could probably just bore him to death. You can kind of understand his fading into obscurity when you take the Nazis out of the equation, and rule out the one hundred and ninety-seventh invasion of the surface/fight with the Fantastic Four.

Attuma's probably just about the pick of the litter when it comes to Namor-specific villains. Granted he doesn't have the snazzy van dyk of Dr. Dorcas, but what he lacks in villainous facial hair, he makes up for in brute force.

On the superhero richtor scale they're pretty comparable. Varying characterization sees each as a fraction more powerful than the other, but on the whole I'm going to say the Hulk-slapping Namor takes that post. Likewise on the strategic intelligence front, even though Attuma is no doubt a fine military mind.

What Attuma does generally have over Namor is numbers. Despite being the rightful and prosperous Prince, Namor's arrogant temper and conflicting association with the surface world leaves him with few truly faithful subjects.
Attuma on the other hand manages to regularly rally barbarian soldiers, and sway the political interests of Atlantis at a whim.

Ultimately Attuma probably serves more than a distraction for Namor, but more often than not the war will be won by the Sub-Mariner, if not every battle. Imperius Rex!

The Math: Sub-Mariner (Meta Class)
The Pick: Sub-Mariner

What went down...
With an eighties pop-rock ballad blaring, Namor returns to Atlantis, having done some general adventuring and soul searching. Ready to accept his birthright, he returns to Atlantis to open a can on the barbarian ruler Attuma, complete with Neptune's personal trident, which he previously had turned down.

The Sub-Mariner punches his way through the kingdom, making his way to the throne room, where he makes an explosive entrance, flying through the doors with demands that would do Zod proud, "Bend your knees to the true prince, Barbarian knaves!"

Attuma commands his guards to seize Namor, but they are less than enthusiastic about their duty. Reaching his hands out to columns at his sides, Namor mocks them. "How you tremble, lowly warriors of base-born Attuma. What -- do you fear the strength of Namor?" With that, he flexes his mighty mutant muscles, and pushes the load baring columns to the point of buckling. He literally brings the ceiling down atop the insurgents unwelcome to the throneroom.

Standing confidently beside the wreckage is Prince Namor, with Neptune's haloed trident in his stead. He waits while Attuma pulls himself from the wreckage of the besmirched Atlantean palace.
In possession of a sword, Attuma hunches and curses Namor's insurrexion, promising to feed him to the serpents.

Attuma's attack is powerful but undisciplined.
Namor is able to swiftly defend the attack with the trident, matching the warrior blow for blow, despite lacking the savage desperation of Attuma's movements.

As Namor talks up his game, Attuma manages to disarm him! With a whip of his sword he flicks the mighty trident from the Prince's hands, flinging it out to land staked by the staff in the undersea dirt.

Not too proud to fight dirty [*ahem*], the Sub-Mariner uses his strength to lift a heavy rock and hurls it at Attuma's face. With the advantage his again, he turns to more traditional means of combat, throwing his weight into a devestating right hand.

Attuma acknowledges his foe's strength, but with a left to the bread basket, scoffs it's comparison to his own impressive physicality. Attuma grabs at Namor's face and heckles, "Does defeat choke the boasts in your throat now, haughty man-fish?"

Namor reaches out to Attuma's face, and furious throws his weight into a left that gets his opponent off of him. Though rattled, Attuma is still in a position to quickly respond in kind with his own jaw-shaking punch, but Namor is likewise not so easily felled.

With one last righteous punch, Namor delivers his decree to the coup leader in word and fist.
"Never shall one soul more of proud Atlantis perish as victim of Attuma's lust for blood!"

No longer able to retaliate, Attuma is lifted off the ground, hoisted above the rightful heir to the throne with Neptune's trident baring witness to the grim occasion. Demanding justice of a murderer, the Sub-Mariner pledges to do what he must.

Attuma dies for his crimes.
Order is restored, and Atlantis is again with a worthy king, but it comes as too little, too late.

Disillusioned, the Atlantean people ask of Prince Namor why it was he did not answer their first plees for help.
With their kingdom torn asunder, much like their hope, the Atlantean peoples dissipate, scattering themselves across the ocean floor like the memory of the once mighty kingdom. Even the insidious Krang joins the other Atlanteans, mournful for his involvement in Byrrah's original manipulation. Thus, Namor takes the throne in an empty kingdom.

The hammer...
Though there is little left to rule over, Namor is king of Atlantis and victor once more in the Secret Wars of Infinite Earths!

A little bit of cross pollonation there. We said goodbye to What If Wednesdays at the end of last month, but I thought I'd bring sexy back one last time for the Monday MUA fun. While it isn't one of my favourite stories, I'm glad I did take the time to look over it again.

I'd love to know who out there is a fan of Atlantis, because honestly I think there's a real argument to be made for pushing it aside. With the Sub-Mariner mini-series coming up soon, I'm thrust into bemusement as solicitations trickle out concerning the heavy involvement it takes with Atlantis.

We've talked in the past about the viability in entertainment of undersea adventures, and how even films of that nature have fallen by the wayside.
I don't think there's anything to suggest an undersea story can't work. I think of a recent issue of Black Panther where the Atlantean backdrop was actually enjoyable, with Namor's involvement as a political figure taking centre stage.

I'm loathed to suggest destroying Atlantis, regardless of the dramatic potential such a concept has. It has been done before, and there's always a heavy expectency in the gut for events such as those to be undone. Still, I remain thoroughly unimpressed by all I hear about the mini-series, and am reminded here how unimpressive Atlantean pseudo-politics can be, despite it's potential.

One can't help but feel a boat was missed with Civil War. Looking to Black Adam for inspiration, you can see how the catalyst of Namorita's death could have been the spark which lit a fire to take Namor to a place of purpose.
Nobody wants to see Namor rip through the country on a murderous rampage just because it worked for Black Adam, but it seems tragic that Namor, who was characterized in such a manner long before Black Adam, is being outdone by a copycat. Instead, he languishes in an obscure limbo of being himself, yet not so.

Not to say change is bad. I still strongly stand by my concept of moving Namor back into the surface world, allowing him to take active interest in a role more reminiscent of a super-ambassador. With the political atmosphere so tense in post-Civil War Marvel, it becomes even easier to justify the shift, bouncing off of the Atlantis sleeper-agent/Damage Control conspiracy sub-plot.

Of course, the ultimate goal of my concept would be to have Namor taking a pro-active role in the criminal underworld, acting in the vaccuum left by the imprisonment of figures like Kingpin, Bullseye, Daredevil, Punisher, Owl, Hammerhead and other noteworthy gangsters. Even with DD and his fellows moving back to the scene, I think it would be wonderfully interesting to see the interplay between these characters.

That corner of the Marvel Universe is heavily directed by the prestigious Daredevil title, and while you could never ask to impede on the direction of that book, somewhere at the heart of the concept is that issue number five where DD and Namor met. It's so often noted as many fans' favourite fights, and I love the idea of giving some sort of logical validity to a scenario like that in a contemporary setting.

Yes, it's a distinct shift, but there are a lot of smaller moving parts that would make it work. It's probably a little too radical to happen even if I somehow establish myself as one of the most exciting new writers in comics, but damned if it isn't a pitch that will rip your fucking nipples off!
And yes. You can bet your arse I'm going to be peddling it again in the future, because what's coming is boring. I want excitement!

The Fight: 4 The Issue: 4
NEXT: Can a rag tag bunch of Z-graders possibly stand up to the might of the deadly DRAGON MAN?!