THOR versus CONAN

What If Thor of Asgard Had Met Conan the Barbarian? (Marvel)
Where: What If? #39 When: June 1983
Why: Alan Zelenetz How: Ron Wilson

The Story So Far...
Victorious in battle with the Frost Giants of Jotunheim: Thor, God of Thunder, followed his wicked half-brother into a cavernous labyrinth. In search of the mischief-making Loki, Thor chose a path that led him backwards through time, into the realm of Troy during the Trojan War.

This was but one course of history, but what of the path not taken? In another reality, Thor chose a different tunnel, one that led him to ancient age of Hyboria! There, his memory was lost and godly powers diminished, making him prone to the wanted warrior-thief stalking Corinthia: Conan The Barbarian!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Thor 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Conan 4 (Tactician)
Speed: Draw 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Thor 6 (Generator)
Agility: Draw 2 (Average)
Fighting: Conan 7 (Living Weapon)
Energy: Thor 5 (Lasers)
Total: Thor 32 (Super)

It's a fantasy fight worthy of the greatest myths and legend! A dream battle, bridging the gulf of time and reality to pit God against Barbarian! The question is simple: What if Thor of Asgard met Conan the Cimmerian?

This is the first time we've seen Conan on The Comic Book Fight Club! His reputation precedes him, but he may not always be well represented by assumptions. Yes, Conan is a savage warrior -- but he's also a learned traveler, and incredibly canny combat strategist. Skills he'll certainly need to best a god!

Conan is stronger and more durable than most normal men, but he isn't super-human. Ordinarily that would put him at a significant disadvantage against the nigh invulnerable god of thunder, but this battle features a weakened Thor.

When Beta Ray Bill first battled the Odinson in Thor #337, he demonstrated that an evenly matched opponent could challenge Thor with pure heart and courage. Conan has plenty of both, but its unlikely the barbarian would be deemed worthy of wielding the enchanted hammer Mjolnir against Thor, as Bill was.

Mjolnir has been key to Thor winning against some other high-profile crossover opponents. The hammer's influence over lightning helped quash the pantheon of powers at Captain Marvel's disposal, in Marvel versus DC #2. He also got the drop on Superman with Mjolnir, sucker-striking him in JLA/Avengers #1!

Thor wasn't quite himself when he attacked Superman and he isn't quite himself in today's battle, either. His travel has left him weakened, but also disoriented. That could be significant, if his history with fugue states is anything to go by!

When Thor succumbed to a madness, he became a rampaging berserker who dominated many powerful challengers, including the Super-Skrull [Thor #464], and Drax The Destroyer [Warlock and The Infinity Watch #21]! There was also the Heroes Reborn pocket universe Thor, who was manipulated by Loki into fighting the entire Avengers to a standstill in Avengers (Vol.2) #1. All in all, disorientation only makes Thor a more dangerous threat. Bad news for Conan!

Conan won't hesitate to exploit Thor's apparent vulnerability, but the odds of cutting him asunder with a sword still seems remote. Without his usual strength, endurance, and command of the storm, Thor's vulnerable, but the only way we can truly know what would happen is by reading on!

The Tape: Thor Ranking: Thor (#29)

What Went Down...
Suddenly struck with an unshakeable disorientation, Thor encounters a pack of Corinthian soldiers on the hunt. Little does any of them realize, they're being watched from the mountains above by the wanted thief: Conan The Cimmerian!

A sudden hail of boulders betrays Conan's position as he uses the terrain to secure a tactical advantage against the four soldiers and Thor! The Thunderer escapes harm, but scales the mountain to confront his unseen attacker!

Conan mistakes the blonde-haired god for a contemporary of Aesir, but his lack of quarrel with those of the North doesn't interest Thor. He launches himself at the appeasing Cimmerian -- sending both tumbling down the mountain side!

The barbarian mockingly presumes madness on Thor's behalf. Only a madman would travel so far to "have his bowels carved in warmer climes!" They scramble to their feet and Conan makes the first move, aiming to oblige his new foe!

The overhead sword strike is easily blocked by Thor's hammer. He swings wildly in retaliation, completing his arc just in time to block the ducking barbarian's sword!

The verbal sparring continues as Conan swings for Thor's neck, but again strikes blade to uru metal hammer! Incensed by Conan's bravado as much as his fighting, Thor swings Mjolnir with renewed purpose - swatting the sword away!

The barbarian is disarmed, but by no means harmless! With impressive strength he hoists a massive boulder above his head and tosses it at his opponent!

Thor goes down and suffers the indignation of further taunting! Conan compares the toppled thunder god to a tortoise and stokes his godly ire! Thor leaps back to his feat and charges at Conan to grapple hand-to-hand in a test of strength!

Even with his senses dulled, Thor's godly strength is more than a match for the Cimmerian warrior. The thunderer hurls Conan wildly into surrounding rock!

The impact would devastate any ordinary man, but Conan endures, remarking in awe of the incredible strength possessed by his mysterious foe! The barbarian rises, not with aggression in his heart, but respect!

His arms hang peacefully by his sides as Conan assures Thor it is no act of treachery. With that, Thor stays his hand & hammer as well, recruited to be Conan's travelling partner. He receives a fallen Conrinthian's sword at Conan's assistance and the pair head off into a new adventure.

The Hammer...
Well, there you have it! The battle ends in a mutual ceasefire, leaving fans of each warrior to debate the merits of their combat beyond its conclusion.

There's an obvious case to be made that Thor had the advantage thanks to his superior strength. That said, Conan is also renowned for his ability to endure, and was down but far from out when Thor turned on the muscle!

Here on Secret Wars on Infinite Earths we primarily focus on the results that did happen, but if prompted to ask "What If?", I would certainly lean in favour of an eventual Thor victory. Of course, by the end of the issue, it's the weakened Thor who perishes in final battle with Stygian wizard Thoth-Amon. Not Conan!

You might scoff at the thought of Thor dying in such a way, but grim death was a traditional fixture of the What if? series, particularly into its second volume, where a 'be careful what you wish for' element to stories was common.

I was already thinking about today's battle from What If? (Vol.1) #39 thanks to the announcement that Conan The Barbarian will join the Marvel Universe in May's Savage Avengers. Imagine my surprise earlier this week when /Film also reported an animated version of What If? is in development for Disney+!

According to the story, the streaming What If? cartoon will feature branching alternate realities based on events from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. That makes it hard to imagine episodes punctuated with major hero's deaths, but you never do know! The first confirmed story will feature Loki finding the hammer of Thor, borrowing a basic concept from What If? (Vol.1) #47.

Reducing the series to Marvel's movie slate limits the scope that made What If? one of my favourite series growing up, but if it also minimizes the chance for creating cumbersome rifts within the mainstream universe. A good thing, since it's still a crapshoot whether these movies "get it right", and far too early to start subverting what's still in the process of being established.

Marvel had a library of almost two decades worth of monthly printed adventures before the concept of What If? was introduced in 1977. Even more, if you also include the Golden Age of characters like Captain America and Sub-Mariner! Granted, those stories were much less likely to be drawn from than the modern pages of the "Marvel Age", begun with 1961's Fantastic Four, who also starred in the first issue of What If?, in a reference to 1963's Amazing Spider-Man #1.

Simple ideas like Spider-man joining the Fantastic Four -- instead of being rejected -- are a lot of fun when you have a firm grasp of who the characters are. When these stories intrude upon informing an audience, that tends to erode at the core concept, damage lode baring ideas, and generally lead to sloppy and increasingly meaningless fiction.

I'm not quite sure if that's how I would view Conan The Barbarian becoming part of the Marvel Universe with Savage Avengers, but it's close.

Marvel has a long history with the pulp barbarian, who was created in 1932 for Weird Tales magazine by Robert E Howard. Marvel started publishing stories in 1970, helping usher in the modern (or bronze) age of comics. Despite all this, Conan is owned and licensed by Cabinet Entertainment -- not Marvel.

Marvel have tied some licensed characters into their shared universe before. Iron Man and SHIELD battled Godzilla. ROM Space Knight and Micronauts led superheroes and toylines to meet with some regularity, as well. Of course, in the case of ROM, I can't help but think of the years of licensing entanglements that kept collections from being reprinted. Which is one of the reasons bringing Conan into Marvel Comics proper seems like a bigger hassle than its worth.

To that point: As far as I know, "What If? Classic" collections omitted this and other issues containing Conan. That might be rectified now that the Conan license is back with Marvel, and an animated series might drive interest in reissued collections, but you need only imagine if this were a regular series to see the frustration that could lie ahead with Savage Avengers.

For my money, these type of crossovers are best released as mini-series. Isolated stories that play with the concepts, deliver dream matches, but don't overstay their welcome, damage either property, or cause long term problems.

I'm sure we'll be back to look at more from the Thor & Conan team-up. If you'd like to find more crossover dream matches, or just discover more tales from different universes - dive into the Secret Archive! There you'll find every featured fight indexed by publisher, series, and issue number!

You can also follow and subscribe to Secret Wars on Infinite Earths on Twitter and Facebook to get regular links to fights inspired by the topics of the day! Be sure to like, share, and retweet the best battles!

Winner: Inconclusive (Draw)
#29 (--) Thor
#426 (new) Conan The Barbarian

JUGGERNAUT versus DOCTOR STRANGE

What If... Wolverine Had Become The Lord of Vampires? (Marvel)
Where: What If...? #24 When: April 1991
Why: Roy Thomas & RJM Lofficier How: Tom Morgan

The Story So Far...
In the world we know, Storm was able to fight back when she was seduced by the Lord of Vampires: Dracula! What if that wasn't the case, though? What if Storm was caught in Dracula's spell? What if Dracula turned all of the X-Men into his vampire slaves?

In a reality where exactly that happened: Wolverine proves too strong of will for the Lord of Vampires to control him! When he rises at the vampire's behest, the clawed mutant succeeds in killing Dracula and inheriting his evil throne!

As Lord of Vampires, Wolverine commands his X-Men to convert all mutants to his vampiric leadership! The super-powered horde lays waste to New York City, killing or converting those who might stop them! The Sorcerer Supreme is one of the few powerful foes who remains beyond their reach, but with their power base expanding, Wolverine chooses the perfect mystic agent to stop Dr. Strange once and for all: His loyal vampire servant - The Unstoppable Juggernaut!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Juggernaut 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Dr. Strange 5 (Professor)
Speed: Juggernat 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Juggernaut 7 (Unstoppable)
Agility: Dr. Strange 3 (Acrobat)
Fighting: Juggernaut 3 (Street Wise)
Energy: Dr. Strange 6 (Mass Destruction)


It's Halloween season and that means it's the perfect time to venture through the Nexus of Realities - back to an alternate Marvel Universe where Wolverine became Lord of the Vampires! It's a world we've been to before, witnessing the terrors of Wolverine vs Dracula and Punisher vs The X-Men! It might be hard to imagine, but before Punisher fought the X-Men, things got a whole lot worse!

Juggernaut is an unstoppable powerhouse at the best of times -- but what if some how, some way a creature of the night managed to convert him to the legion of vampires? That's exactly what we're dealing with today!

You might be wondering how a magically empowered mortal such as Juggernaut (aka; Cain Marko) could be bitten by a vampire. After all, we've seen Deadpool dump a factory load of knives on him and they didn't leave a scratch [Deadpool: Sins of the Past #2]! The answer may lie in a reference that reads like a mistake at first glance...

In this particular issue, Juggernaut is referred to as a mutant. That's a big change from his defining origin as Charles Xavier's very spiteful, very human step-brother. It's unclear what his abilities or vulnerabilities are, or what their source is. We can assume he has some degree of magical enhancement, as he's in possession of the "Ruby of Cyttorak" and is hand picked by Wolverine to take down his opponent: The Sorcerer Supreme - Doctor Strange!

Dr. Strange is one of the few powerful heroes alive and unconverted in this world, in part due to the spells that safeguard his Greenwich Sanctum Sanctorum. Vampires cannot penetrate the protective occult field, but in the spirit of fallen allies Spider-man and Daredevil, Strange has taken to leaving the safety of his home, to patrol the sky of the now vampire infested New York City.

Strange is a powerful enough sorcerer to defend himself, but with many heroes and villains added to the mutant vampire horde, he's taking his life in his hands. Especially considering he intends his greatest weapon against the vampires to be the un-deciphered Montesi Formula -- a spell found in the Darkhold capable of wiping out all vampires!

Human, mutant, or vampire - Juggernaut's connection to the magic of Cyttorak makes him a dangerous foe! We've seen his strength overwhelm other magical powerhouses: Captain Britain [Excalibur #3], Wonder Woman [Unlimited Access #1] and Captain Marvel Jr [Unlimited Access #3]!

Strange is obviously no slouch, as we've seen in victories against Baron Mordo [Strange Tales #111], The Hand [New Avengers #27] and The Hood & Dormammu [New Avengers #54]! He has been shown to be vulnerable to some other powerful magics, though, such as that of Agamotto [New Avengers #2] - whose power he routinely calls upon! The Crimson Bands of Cyttorak are one of his most powerful hexes, as well. Which could spell trouble for the good Doctor!

How much trouble? Our patented Tape tentatively has Strange just 1 point greater than Juggernaut, who's only two ranks lower on our cumulative Fight Club ladder at #67! That data spells a close call! Let's knock on the door and ask for our treat - or trick!

The Tape: Dr. Strange Ranking: Dr. Strange (#65)

What Went Down...
Soaring the night sky above silent Manhattan streets -- Earth's greatest defense against magical terror watches pensively. Much weighs on the considerable mind of Dr. Stephen Strange! An outbreak of vampirism has signaled a menace other than old foe Dracula. A menace unknown to The Sorcerer Supreme, despite his considerable knowledge of the occult and arcane!

A powerful mystic artefact - The Orb of Agamotto - has pinpointed a particularly strong gathering of vampiric aura. Anticipating a horde of the bloodsucking undead, The Sorcerer Supreme breaches the threshold of an open shutter door.

Dr. Strange finds only the crimson glow of the "Ruby of Cyttorak" in the dark of the urban underground. He knows the jewel could very likely signal the presence of the unstoppable Juggernaut! Before he can conjure strength to the Shield of the Seraphim that surrounds him -- Juggernaut strikes!

The unstoppable brute is a dark red blur as he charges into the back of the distracted Sorcerer Supreme! He gloats, even as Strange cries in agony!

The mystic properties of the gem had drained the magic shield that protected Strange from harm. Juggernaut has stood toe to toe with everyone from Thor to the Hulk! The impact of his uncanny momentum shatters the Doctor's spine!

A fist as big as his head collides with Dr. Strange's face like a missile! Blood streaks from his nose. The resulting whiplash breaks his neck.

Earth's final defense against the magical realm is reduced to a crumpled mess on a basement floor. He breathes his final mortal breaths through his own blood, gazing up at the horrific vision of Juggernaut's fanged maw!

Only Dr. Strange's magic Cloak of Levitation appears to escape the grasp of Juggernaut, who delivers the corpse back to his Lord Wolverine. He'll be fed to crocodiles, but there is more in Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy! Though Strange's mortal form is dead, his spirit still roams...

The Hammer...
A chilling tale with a grim end: Juggernaut wins!

If you're wondering: Dr. Strange's astral presence does indeed continue on in the story! With most heroes dead, vampires, or kept out of the city, he finds an unlikely ally and student in consummate survivalist, soldier, and star of What If stories: The Punisher!

You can see how he fared with Dr. Strange's guidance in the featured fight: Punisher versus The X-Men! If you thought today's battle was a little dark, just wait until you see how that one goes! Kitty Pryde is all I'm saying! Yeesh!

As you might have guessed, this is an issue of What If...? I particularly like. It's got that gritty '91 feel, created not just with Tom Morgan's pencils, but the subtle work of colorist Tom Vincent. His heroes have the primary colors you expect. Dr. Strange's cape is a bright red with yellow trim, his shirt bright blue. The world around him is what's different, though. Everything is darkened hues of purple, red, brown. It's a very effective way of representing an iconic version of the Marvel Universe, but adding a grim twist.

I go back and forth on how I feel about Count Dracula being part of the Marvel Universe. He's quickly excised to serve the concept of the issue, so it's kind of getting the best of all worlds.

Wolverine, still a decade away from maturing into a mass market nice guy, smoothly transitions from the X-Man who'll do what's necessary, to a cold blooded Lord of the vampires! He's ice cold, and the story lets that play out with genuinely unsettling results.

It's hard to imagine Dracula carrying out a plan on this scale of Wolverine's. I like to imagine that's the character of a classier villain, even if Wolverine's success is only a consequence of having an imaginary story sandbox to play in.

Looking more closely at the detail of the story, there are a few problems. As noted in The Tape section, it never sits well when the high concept overwhelms a character like Juggernaut.

Ignoring the inconsistency of calling him a mutant in the story, it just seems at odds with the character to suggest he could ever be bitten by a vampire. It was a problem I also had when the biters were a more decrepit brand of undead in Marvel Zombies [#5]. The high concept is ultimately what matters and it's a lot easier to just accept that everybody got turned, but it's a whole lot cleaner when those questions don't linger. To say nothing of the extra fun had by asking - and answering those kinds of questions!

A few months ago we looked at What If...? #94: A story where Juggernaut's invulnerability is itself the feature premise of the story. He's a lone wanderer in a universe where radiation has wiped out almost all of humanity. His invincibility plays out as a curse as he longs for the humanity he condemned through his own selfish actions. It might not have the simple, broad appeal of a rampaging Juggernaut with fangs, but it's a very satisfying story to tell.

Speaking of the escalation of mass appeal and the accompanying budgets; zombie legend George Romero recently told IndieWire movies like World War Z, and the Walking Dead TV series have made it almost impossible to court funding for his smaller, more socio-politically minded zombie movies. He also noted that the spectacle of "zombies wreaking havoc" had overtaken films of substance. He has a point, but even The Walking Dead, which seems to be propelled more so by tropes of the genre and character-driven chapters, never quite exploits the ever intriguing question of How? Why? When? The questions these superhero versions invariably raise, and could be very interesting to see play out.

One element of our feature fight fans will see play out on screens is Doctor Strange! Marvel's Sorcerer Supreme is already joining the cinematic universe in some parts of the world, with an official wide release coming November 4th!

As we say goodbye to an October full of demons and Halloween horrors, we levitate effortlessly into a November filled with more Doctor Strange! I hope you'll join me as we witness the true Sorcerer Supreme in action!

In the mean time, be encouraged to follow links throughout this entry to discover even more exciting battles! You can get even more vampires and monsters by hitting up the Old Comics Halloween: Chilling Tales spotlight! Master the art of the fight by venturing into the ancient Issue Index, for a complete archive of all the past featured fights in order of publisher and series!

Winner: Juggernaut
#42 (+25) Juggernaut [+1 kill]
#67 (-2) Dr. Strange

MAGNETO versus JUGGERNAUT

Wanderings (Marvel)
Where: What If...? #94 When: February 1997
Why: Jorge Gonzalez How: James Calafiore

The Story So Far...
Humanity is dead. A single murderous act committed by the mystically empowered Juggernaut has changed the course of human history - condemning him to wander a planet with no human life.

The ripple that doomed this reality was the death of Charles Xavier. In this world, the mutant hunting robots called Sentinels went unopposed by the X-Men. They killed the Avengers and Fantastic Four before the world even knew of their existence. In time, the Sentinels turned on their masters and reprogrammed themselves. Converting their power cells to emit a powerful radiation - they poisoned the Earth. The result was the extinguishing of all human life.

Protected from physical harm by the mystic enchantment of the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak - Cain Marko was unaffected. Unstoppable. Alone. Or so he thought, until years of wandering bring him back to the Sentinel base he destroyed, where an unexpected survivor waits to greet him - Magneto!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Juggernaut 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Magneto 5 (Professor)
Speed: Juggernaut 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Juggernaut 7 (Unstoppable)
Agility: Magneto 2 (Average)
Fighting: Juggernaut 3 (Street Wise)
Energy: Magneto 6 (Mass Destruction)


What if... Magneto challenged the Juggernaut? Both are legendary enemies of Professor X and the X-Men, and both have even joined the team for varying amounts of time in different periods! Even so, neither has had a great deal to do with the other in fifty years of publication! That makes this a special showdown!

This is one of those fights where boiling down a winner really comes down to the circumstances they're positioned in. Both could conceivably finish the fight with a flick of their wrist, just as easily as their strengths could cancel each other out - resulting in a very long, very drawn out stalemate.

Juggernaut aka; Cain Marko is the most direct and inflexible when it comes to his abilities. The Crimson Gem of Cyttorak mystically grants him major league super-strength, implausible invulnerabilities, typically limitless endurance, and momentum that will render him unstoppable! Even so - he has been stopped!

The best examples on record come from the powerhouses of the DC Universe, who managed to match pure brute force with the unstoppable Juggernaut! Superman made the most convincing case, catching him by surprise with a knock-down blow [DC versus Marvel #1]. Wonder Woman & Spider-man employed strength, smarts and a colliding New God for the KO [Unlimited Access #1]! Captain Marvel Jr wasn't so lucky, but a tag team effort from Iceman & Cyclops showed Juggernaut's unstoppable momentum can be used against him [Unlimited Access #3].

Magneto: Master of Magnetism likely won't be able to rely on brute force. His ability to effect his will over any ferrous material could certainly see him hurling physical objects Juggernaut's way, but that's child's play for the Juggernaut, as we saw when Spidey tried I-beams and a wrecking ball [Amazing Spider-man #230]!

One of the deadliest tactics in Magneto's arsenal is his ability to manipulate an opponent from within. At times he's been able to control the iron content in a foe's blood, giving him enough control to hold them in place. He took that to extremes against Apocalypse [X-Men Omega] and Wolverine [X-Men #25] - the latter succumbing to his famous adamantium being ripped from his bones! As Juggernaut is physically invulnerable, though, this wouldn't get Magneto far.

He could try binding Juggernaut in massive pieces of metal, or by using means of magnetic enhancements to increase the force of his power. That worked well against the rampaging Sub-Mariner, at least for a little while [X-Men #6]!

Indeed, bondage and/or repulsion seem like Magneto's best bets to secure any kind of victory against the Juggernaut. In the past, hi-tech restraints have been used effectively to hold Juggernaut in incarceration for periods. For alternative results, Magneto could use a position of advantage to propel Juggernaut into space. He usually finds his way back, but it would keep him out of the way.

Finally - for a creative solution we need only look to Nimrod, who was able to use highly focused energy beams to disrupt Juggernaut's ability to think clearly once his protective helmet was removed [Uncanny X-Men #194]. Even if the outer helmet is resistant to magnetism, the physical force of other objects has always been a safe bet to get it off. A focused electro-magnetic beam could produce some effect on Juggernaut's brain - disorienting him, at the least.

Of course, the world is full of non-ferrous objects, and if Juggernaut had his way, he could just as easily clobber Magneto with a few park trees and chunks of cement. Which is extra bad news in the alternate reality we're about to visit, where Magneto must maintain protective shielding against a poisoned Earth!

Under ordinary circumstances this one really could go either way! As radiation is a mortal peril of no consequence to Juggernaut, he clearly has an advantage in this environment. Then again, in a world that was once overrun with Sentinels, Magneto may still have a few tricks up his sleeves...

The Tape: Magneto Ranking: Juggernaut (#349)

What Went Down...

Months turn to years as the Juggernaut walks the planet alone - a prisoner of the magic that keeps him alive. Haunted by silence and personal demons, his mind wanders as far as his invincible body. He finds himself back at the Grand Canyon: site of one of the murderous Sentinels' largest manufacturing facilities. It was a source of misery Juggernaut destroyed long ago - an act of vengeance for a world already dead. He wonders if he should have left them to build, so that one day they may overwhelm him. As he does, the metal carcasses stir...

The machines move not of their own will, but by that of a survivor amongst the wreckage: The Master of Magnetism - Magneto!

Wielding total control over the Sentinel's broken metal bodies, they reach out like extensions of Magneto's own form! A giant hand crashes down from the sky, slamming and pinning Juggernaut to the barren Earth!

Entire squadrons of Sentinels were no match for the Juggernaut when they were functioning. The remnants of a few lifeless shells dangled like puppets are barely an inconvenience. He smashes through the pieces effortlessly! Enraged!

Magneto entertains a request for his tale of survival. It provides a distraction while he twists the coil of a Sentinel's metal lash around Juggernaut's body!

The restraint wraps around Juggernaut's massive mystically charged arms like a metallic boa constrictor. It loops around his body - but so do his mighty fingers around it. With a simple clench of his fist - the Juggernaut crushes the steel. With a flex of his chest and arms - he explodes free of the shattering snare!

As unstoppable in action as reputation, the Juggernaut advances - smashing through Magneto's defenses. A wall of Sentinel scrap - no match!

Magneto hurls metal upon metal! More and more! He knows his time is running short. He cannot keep up the attack while also maintaining the shielding that protects him from the radioactive landscape.

Face to face, helmet to helmet - Juggernaut mockingly notices the gaunt look on Magneto's face. It's no joke. The Master of Magnetism is dying and it's all the Juggernaut's fault. Just like all the deaths that befell human and mutant alike.

Succumbing to the effects of the poisoned atmosphere, Magneto tosses his helmet away. He won't need it. He stares through the hulking monster with laser focus and utters a final curse: If the Juggernaut had not succeeded in killing his brother Charles Xavier, the X-Men could have stopped the Sentinels, and the heroes of Earth would not have fallen to ambush, and humanity could have lived.  If the undying Juggernaut is tired of an existence alone - he must live with the knowledge that it was all his own doing!

The barbs of Magneto's final words penetrate the Juggernaut in ways radiation never will! The furious behemoth looms over Magneto as he falls and dies.

The Hammer...

Somehow I don't think this one'll be settling the fantasy fight debates any time soon. Never the less, the record will show a dramatic conclusion makes Juggernaut the physical victor!

After dipping into the alternate reality of Age of Apocalypse last week [X-Men Omega]; I couldn't pass up the opportunity to pull this now classic What If...? out of storage.

The What If? banner has enjoyed a resurgence in recent years, retooling current Marvel events in a series of one-shots and specials. It seems as good a way as any to restore the relevance of a book that languished into cancellation in 1998, a mere ten issues after What If...? (Volume 2) #94 -- today's featured issue.

The book was in the midst of a second revamp at this point. Episodes now revolved around a starring Marvel character, typically suffering some grim fate in a dark, twisted reality. That isn't entirely different from a lot of the classic issues, but the presentation took it into increasingly dark, blood stained worlds, minus the contextualizing of The Watcher's narration. Many of the issues I think of from this time had no relation to the main Marvel Universe at all. I imagine some purists consider it a dark time for the series, but #94 highlights the hidden gems that were still coming out of it.

#94 is actually a pretty classic What If? set-up, obscured by the new style. It makes no overture to tell you exactly when it takes place. Calafiore's penciling style is very much in key with a modern Marvel aesthetic. All of this just goes to obfuscate very deliberate references to X-Men #11-#18 (1965). Classic!

You don't need to know your X-Men history to enjoy the issue, and that's part of the beauty of it. It's just a very effective stand-alone story. One that takes the well known premise of Juggernaut's invincibility and shows the grim downside of being unstoppable. You get some nice superhero action. A mostly convincing vision of a desolate world.

When Magneto dies, Juggernaut goes on another smashing tantrum, uncovering the true reason for the sacrifice: Magneto was trying to lure him away from an underground pocket of survivors. They're sealed away from the outside poisons by a surviving Iceman, whose powers have gone haywire since Charles Xavier died. In his desperation for human contact, Juggernaut condemns them to die, as well. A poignant message about the virtue of treading lightly, and the curse of being immortal: 'A once boastful battle cry is now a horrific prophecy of damnation. No one can stop the unstoppable Juggernaut.'

Of course, like all good things, especially in comics, the more you know - the more you'll get out of it! The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants fought the X-Men in X-Men #11, ending with The Stranger abducting Magneto and Toad. Juggernaut stomped his way into Xavier's Mansion in X-Men #12 & #13. Dr. Bolivar Trask and his Sentinels debut in X-Men #14. Magneto returns to Earth in X-Men #17, telling the tale of his spaceship escape in X-Men #18.

These are the events that shape What If? #94. In this reality, Juggernaut not only confronts his hated step-brother - but murders him! This allows debuting Sentinels to catch sixties Marvels other heroes unawares. Magneto and Toad were safely off-world at the time, allowing them to return and create sanctuary.

All in all, a very effective use of linear publishing history! All utilized without effecting a shred of burden upon a reader who may be otherwise completely unawares of the retro references they were reading! Fantastic!

Of course, a clever and willing reader will never be deterred by loose references to past events. Each of us carries with us an extensive history that is of little or no consequence when we meet new people. The same should always be thought of in superhero comics. Such is life! When a relevant thread of prior history presents itself, it's an opportunity for further learning and familiarity. That was always one of my favourite qualities of the What If? series. New stories starring some of my favourite characters, with glimpses of their classic adventures, and new reasons to seek out old stories.

If you happen to be on the look out for a good stand-alone Juggernaut story, I think keeping this old story in mind will be well worth it. You can, of course, find even more great stories by following links in this post, or delving deeper into the Secret Archive of The Comic Book Fight Club!

Winner: Juggernaut

#111 (+238) Juggernaut [+1 kill]
#352 (-1) Magneto

QUICKFIX: WOLVERINE vs DRACULA
What if... Wolverine had become the Lord of Vampires? (Marvel)
Where: What if...? #24 When: April 1991
Why: Roy Thomas/RJM Lofficier How: Tom Morgan

The Tape...
Strength: Dracula 4 (Enhanced)
Intelligence: Dracula 5 (Professor)
Speed: Draw 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Dracula 7 (Unstoppable)
Agility: Wolverine 3 (Acrobat)
Fighting: Wolverine 6 (Warrior)
Energy: Dracula 4 (Arsenal)

Math: Dracula Ranking: Wolverine (#6)

The Fix...
I'm sensing a bit of a vampire night in this year's October!
I really couldn't tell you why. Actually, we'll probably have to force ourselves to find the time to talk about the newest instalment of Marvel Zombies, which is actually not without it's charms, but for the time being, more Dracula!
[In case you missed it, track back to Uncanny X-Men Annual #6!]

This isn't the first time we've taken a look at the events of this particular alternate universe!

Previously we flashed forward to observe the events of Wolverine's last stand as Lord of Vampires, before a final act of nobility put an end to his reign, and completed Dr. Strange and Frank Castle's mission to rid their alternate world of it's plague of death [Punisher versus X-Men].

This time around we're going back to where it all began: the results of the first deviation that shaped this universes grim destiny. It takes place after the events of X-Men #159; where, in our universe, the X-Men met Dracula for the first time, and successfully escaped his embrace all due to the cast iron will of Storm.

For us, the wind-rider was able to resist Dracula's influence, thanks to the affections of Kitty Pryde, and rescued her teammates. In this reality, however, Storm betrayed the X-Men, and left them to Dracula's accursed fangs.

It was his intention to return three nights later to raise Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine, from their graves - his to manipulate as vampiric slaves. He did not, however, anticipate the indomitable will of the Wolverine.

The eighties, from which this story derives it's origins, were a different place.
As we countdown toward next year's Wolverine film we can appreciate that twenty-five years ago the character's popularity had not yet reached the market saturation that we recognise today. The X-Franchise was right on the verge of evolving into a brand, but 1982, Wolverine was just the bad ass mystery man with a killer instinct, and a set of six adamantium claws!

The modern era of comics has grown with a self-consciousness afforded by it's decades of history. From the beginnings of the modern age in the sixties, the medium had the benefit of a greater attention to detail and consistency.
Alterations in the fabric of established characters are typically minor, but even Wolverine has endured subtle variations of what defines him as a superhero.

In facilitating the fandom that grew around the character; Marvel's need to maintain Wolverine, and establish his presence on a grand scale, drafted new details into his backstory and profile. As his history grew in complexity, the nature of his power became greater, to a point where Wolverine's healing abilities have taken on an almost sentient logic. The healing factor accounts not only for his survival through many lethal injuries, but also decades without age.

It's a question debated previously on the Infinite Wars, but we can't help but arrive once more at the same question: can Wolverine even become a vampire?

In What If...? #24 Wolverine certainly does return from apparent death, and while his transformation is unseen, it's quite possible the healing factor contributed to what follows...

Three nights after they perished beneath Dracula's fangs -- Nightcrawler and Colossus are risen from the grave by the vampire lord. Absent, however, is Wolverine, who instead walks freely from the darkness of the wood where the X-Men suffered their defeat.

Dracula recognises that, like he, Wolverine possesses a will inherently strong enough to resist the mental powers of the vampire, and challenge him for the mystic superiority of Lord of Vampires. The reigning Lord gladly answers Wolverine's artful challenge, leaping unsuspectingly toward a warrior who has already mastered the transformation of a wolf!

Dracula turns from man to bat in an instant, but his new form does little to quell the aggression of Wolverine. As a wolf he leaps atop the humanoid-bat and rips at his throat. The wound remains as Dracula returns to a humanoid form. Wounded, bleeding violently from the throat, Dracula accepts his fate!

With a cold, sinister intent that came with his vampirism, Wolverine unsheathes his adamantium claws and slices Dracula's head clean from his neck -- thus ensuring the permanent death and transference of powers from the former Lord of Vampires.

Here on the Infinite Wars we do things a little different to most sites.
Sure, we're no stranger to the land of speculation [fantasy fights], but for the most part we specialize in observing and recounting battles that actually happened. In this respect, there's a simple answer to our earlier question: yes. Wolverine can - and in this world, did - become a vampire! In the conclusion of the battle, however, we may find unspoken answers that satisfy our curiosity.

Modern cinema has done a lot to progress the mythology of vampirism (and zombification). Films like Blade and Resident Evil do a lot to retool and ground these mythic concepts in a logic that better satisfies the utilitarian logic of modern audiences. Scientific concepts give vampirism a viral basis - recasting this once mystic practise with a biological etymology.

It's hard to fault this beautiful symbiosis of science and fiction.
Like so many great concepts it builds on comparable logics many of us a familiar with, giving the nature of the threat a specific set of rules to exist within. It firmly estalishes the drama of vampirism (or zombification) and carries that weight of logic throughout an entire project.

We cannot, however, forget those many different mythological accounts.
The Lord of Vampires mantle does not bare any specific logic that's easily compared to symptoms of a biogenetic plague. It is in it's essence - magic.

We often find ourselves returning to the subject of Superman and his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. On the Infinite Wars we have the unwavering perception that the conceptual construction of Superman and his abilities rely on their interaction with established parameters that define human ability. Superman exceeds them, ergo he is super-strong, super-fast, super-durable, and so on.
Magic, on the other hand, is that which typically does not comply with conventional science. It exists in fiction defined conceptually as a system that defies and breaks basic universal principles - a contrast to Superman's logic.

This is why Superman is vulnerable to magic - and why Wolverine is likely the same. His healing factor is based on pseudo-science that assumes wounds and ailments, no matter how severe, can be healed.
It's reasonable to assume incantations, or mystic transferences, that defy or exist outside these rules, cannot be healed because they don't cause harm. Mystic vampirism requires mystic solutions - ie; the Montesi Formula.

Food for thought this Halloween, true believers.

Winner: Wolverine
The Fight: 4 The Issue: 6

Unfortunately, to the best of our knowledge, this issue has not yet been collected in trade paperback format. You'll find plenty of other great reads to buy in the Amazonian Gift Shoppe, however, which is a great way to support the site. Most collections featuring issues reviewed in the Secret Archives are available, at reasonable prices!

ROGUE versus AVENGERS
What if Rogue possessed the power of Thor? (Marvel)
Where: What If...? #66 When: October 1994
Why: Simon Furman How: John Royle

The Story so far...
It has long been theorized that for every defining decision made in life, there are infinite worlds where each possible and even improbable outcome is played out. This is truth, and the Watcher is pledged to observe and record the events on each, including a world where a woman stole the power of Thor, becoming a goddess unto herself!

Long before she was a charter member of the X-Men. the mutant called Rogue joined her mother, Mystique, in the formation of a new Brotherhood of Mutants. Disillusioned by the birth of her spirit stealing powers, Rogue willingly submits to the terrorist actions of Mystique's group, which eventually brings them into conflict with the Avengers!

In our world Rogue permanently absorbed superhuman traits from Ms. Marvel, granting her enhanced strength, speed, and flight, and the burden of living with actions that left Marvel comatose. In another world, however, events take a considerably different turn, and a remorseless Rogue crosses a line from which she will never be able to return, and neither will Thor...

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Thor 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Beast 6 (Genius)
Speed: Beast 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Thor 6 (Generator)
Agility: Beast 5 (Cat-Like)
Fighting Ability: Thor 6 (Warrior)
Energy Powers: Thor 5 (Lasers)


- The Avengers are: Thor, Spider-Woman, Vision, Hawkeye, Wonder Man, Beast, and Jocasta.

Plotting against his half-brother, the Norse god of mischief, Loki, uses illusions to manipulate the rages of the green goliath known as the Hulk!
The scheme is intended to draw Thor into a combative trap, but Loki's plans come unravelled when a distress call from Rick Jones is picked up not only by Thor, but also the Wasp, Ant-Man, and Iron Man! Despite initial misunderstandings, the unlikely team forms an alliance and easily defeats the god of mischief - thus, the Avengers are born!

Though their adventures would see the roster subject to change, the growing number of associated heroes would only lend credence to the claim that they are Earth's mightiest heroes! United, the many iterations of the Avengers would face foes of minor, or cosmic natures, always willing to put their lives on the line for the greater good, a philosophy embodied by charter members like iconic early recruit, Captain America.

Though the eventual issue of superhero registration would split the team on principle, both sides would ensure the Avengers name would live on.
In an official capacity, Tony Stark leads the team as officially registered operatives of SHIELD; while a collective of street level heroes, including the likes of Dr. Strange, Power Man, and Spider-Man, fight the good fight in secret.

- A tumultuous and unstable childhood in Mississippi masked a dark secret in the history of a girl named Anna Marie. Unbeknownst to her, a genetic time bomb was ticking away, destined to awaken during pubesence and the moment of her first, and last kiss. Upon discovering an innate mutant ability to drain the energy and mind of other living beings upon skin contact, this fragile young girl became the withdrawn woman known as Rogue.

Manipulated by her birth-mother, Mystique, Rogue would become a member of the Brotherhood of Mutants, and during this time undergo another transformation. Battle with Ms. Marvel would grant Rogue superhuman strength and the power of flight as a result of extended contact between the two.
This milestone occurance would leave a lasting guilt with Rogue, and help shape her into the woman she was destined to become, as a member of the X-Men.

The Math: Avengers Ranking: Thor (#17)

What Went Down...
This story actually omits the Watcher, instead revealing this tangent from the perspective of the precognitive mutant called Destiny, whose premonitions give her insights into the many likelihoods of any decision. It is she who foresees a dreadful future as Rogue does battle with Earth's mightiest heroes.

The battle already in progress, Spider-Woman blasts desperately at the grinning villain who keeps a palm to Thor's face. Like a superhuman leech, Rogue draws upon the godly energies of the Norse storm deity, gaining his invulnerability.

The Avengers rally their forces under the field leadership of Vision. The synthoid approaches Rogue, who is contemplating the dangers of holding on to her prey too long. Her focus remains unbroken as Vision phases his arm through her gut, increasing his density to near normal - a move that would render pain and unconsciousness on most ordinary adversaries, but not a god.

Suddenly Rogue recoils from Thor, screaming as raw energy beams from her eyes and mouth. Seeing an opening, Vision directs the Avengers to attack in her moment of weakness, but this serves only to snap Rogue out of her daze. She swats Vision with the super human strength of a god, whilst shrugging off the stinger blasts of Spider-Woman.

The Vision's synthetic body is reduced to spare parts as he hurtles through the Avengers perimeter, reaching a crash landing inside the headquarters mansion, much to the shock of his wife, Scarlet Witch.

Outside; Hawkeye, Spider-Woman and Wonder Man do their best to pool their powers, but it's a similar scene as Rogue turns the strength of the Avengers' powerhouse against them. With a mighty Norse blow, the villainness sends Wonder Man on a similar path to Vision. Merciless in her march, Rogue hoists a vehicle through which WM had crashed, and brings it crashing down upon him with interest!

Beast and Jocasta leap from within Avengers mansion.
In another world Beast and Rogue would be great friends and teammates with the X-Men, but here, the only contact between them is offensive. Rogue swats the bounding Beast, leaving him to crash across the battlefield.

Despite quipping in Thor's unique tongue, very little of the Avengers' thoughts penetrate Rogue's mind as she rampages against the heroes. In a single blow the superhuman southern belle brings her fists down upon the street, causing a quake that rattles the foundations of adjacent buildings, burying Hawkeye and Spider-Woman beneath a shower of rubble!

Jocasta next feels Rogue's wrath, as her energy blasts are easily shrugged off, and her metallic casing is penetrated by Rogue's invulnerable fist. In a frenzy, the mutant rips away at Jocasta's circuitry, revelling in her powers, until it clicks.
With the rush of combat and the absorption of power settling, Rogue begins to feel the weight of her actions.

As Wonder Man frees himself from his burial beneath a van, he bares witness to a terrifying sight. As Rogue struggles to formulate a plan of action, she reaches for Thor's hammer, and despite it's many enchantments against evil, she lifts it effortlessly...

The Hammer...
In true What If style, it's a devestating victory for the magnificent mutant, Rogue! For those who love their supet stock; though she leaves Thor technically in a coma, we're going to notch it up at a third kill stat (for Vision, Jocasta), making Rogue one lethal customer!

If you've been following this month's Cover to Cover, you'll already know we've been throwing the X-Men a bit of overdue goodwill in a month of good house keeping. A lot of overlooked items are getting checked, and this issue actually fullfils a few of them. I mean, sure, there's that X-Men connection, but there are a few other influences on this particular selection.

She-Hulk and She-Thing? Why, they're old friends of the Infinite Wars!
She-Thor on the other hand, was something that managed to completely stay below my otherwise marvelous Marvel radar! It was over on Comic by Comic that the loveable Rich Lovatt whipped this doozy onto the board in an unashamed celebration of the spin-off character currently appearing in The Initiative.

As much as I would have loved to meet his challenge to feature the lightning wielding lass, I haven't had any opportunity to pick up the Initiative title, nor was I reading Thor at the time. I suppose you could've surmised that already, given that I didn't even know who she was, but I digress... Because sure, I don't have that she-Thor, but I do have Rogue! Compromise!

It might disturb some readers to know that Thor actually has a bit of a history with gender-bending tales. At various times, including the post-apocalyptic future of Earth X, Thor has been transformed into a woman to learn humility. This action in itself has probably had sexist undertones, but no doubt it's a predicament some other folks might like to see handed down to the less considerate in the comics reading community. Lessons in humility could be learned by all, as fanboys worldwide discover an anthemic meaning in Madonna's, For a Girl.

Of course, this issue of What If features a tale about Thor becoming a woman in a much less literal sense. I had actually wanted to feature this issue the last time we hovered around Rogue, late last year [Ultimate X-Men #49].

With the exception of a period of bliss during Morrison's run, which was surrounded by other contributions by folks like Joe Casey and Brian K. Vaughan, the X-Men have been on a downward spiral into the creative bowl for a couple of decades. Incestuous storylines gave way to self-referencial nightmares, and constant revamps eventually gave way to a bland blue and yellow goop that darkened as it decayed in and around the already mentioned New X-Men.

During this period of foul characterisation and garbled plot, it was especially surprising to see the decision to cull the mutants to a rough-estimate of one hundred and ninety-eight, give or take a few astute fanboy observations. Editorial saw hope in minimizing the mutant menace, rather than using the palette of characters available to move forward with edicts to steer away from mistakes passed.

Somehow, amidst the chaos, Rogue was a character who managed to rise through the ranks. Hovering between fashion faux pas of the bland black and red outfit newer readers might recognise, and the daggy vintage of the white striped green cloak, Rogue took on a position of leadership in the X-Men that isn't unreasonable for a senior member. As the teams were fragmented by creative drafts, the favourite uncle of the X-verse was able to steer Rogue through some sort of progression, taking her beyond the timid swirl of frustrations and inadequacy that had characterized her in the recent past.

If you've jumped onto the X-Men with Messiah Complex, that last description might have you a little confused about timelines. Alas, it seems Rogue's inadequacies have again been pushed to the forefront. It's too soon to tell for sure if this will be a lasting tale of morose brooding, or a mcguffin in a much larger tale, but it's exasperation of the Nth degree.

Against all odds, the X-Men have come back to the forefront of a lot of readers' lists with Messiah Complex. The story, which for all intents, seemed to meander it's way through a messy conflict featuring some of the enduring, but thoroughly boring personalities still living in the X-Men Universe. Mystique, stripped of the good that came from her solo adventures under Vaughan, is again a thinly motivated mutant terrorist leading a band of evil mutants whose names I do not know, or want to know. As critical as I am of Joss Whedon's "Astonishing" X-Men contributions, you probably have to give him credit for using his moxy to remain removed from the mess of the core titles. Not that he isn't guilty of similar crimes, relying heavily on the past in equally frustrating, but much less unattractive ways.

Somewhere in the maelstrom of all this, Rogue has undergone some sort of transformation. Honestly, the ham-fisted Christ-allagory not even considered, this whole mutant-zero baby story just reminds me of everything that screwed the pooch. Without granting service to a story that seems to reboot the X-Men yet again, it sounds like Rogue will again become a character distanced from those around her, with motivations uncertain because of the influence of Mystique, who is now said to be the only remaining bank of memories absorbed.

I don't mean to be overly negative, and we've been coming down on a lot of topics a lot lately. It should be noted that the issue reviewed, though not perfect, is one of many great issues of the now classic series. In fact, the conclusion of the story, which is something I hope to revisit in the future, paints exactly the kind of contrasting picture I'd like to see of this character.

Rogue managed to work her way through the punkish rebellion of her earlier years, but the hurdle of brooding melodrama is a foe proving most worthy.
This roughly amounts to our discussion the last time we looked at Rogue, and I'm not sure I have an easy, or specific solve. Without even getting into the design innovations of soft-latex bodysuits, I want to say there's forward momentum to be granted to the character. I want to say there's some sort of momentary light at the end of her tunnel, even if on-going stories throw up new hurdles.

What about you, fearless reader?
What are your thoughts about the progress of one of Marvel's franchise mutants? Has the character's depiction in the feature films only hindered any chance of development, or is there still hope for Rogue when she returns in the rebuilding series, X-Men: Legacy, dedicated to a new team post-Professor X's shooting.
Make your feelings known by hitting up the comments, where all remarks are welcome!

The Fight: 5.5 The Issue: 4.5

Unfortunately neither this issue of What If, nor the story it's based upon, Rogue's first appearance in Avengers Annual #10, have been reprinted recently. If you're lucky, you might be able to hunt down a copy of "X-Men: Famous Firsts" or "The Greatest Battles of the Avengers" on Amazon. By utilizing links provided on the Infinite Wars for purchases, you help support your favourite comic book fight blog! Yay!