ROGUE versus AVENGERS
What if Rogue possessed the power of Thor? (Marvel)
Where: What If...? #66 When: October 1994
Why: Simon Furman How: John Royle

The Story so far...
It has long been theorized that for every defining decision made in life, there are infinite worlds where each possible and even improbable outcome is played out. This is truth, and the Watcher is pledged to observe and record the events on each, including a world where a woman stole the power of Thor, becoming a goddess unto herself!

Long before she was a charter member of the X-Men. the mutant called Rogue joined her mother, Mystique, in the formation of a new Brotherhood of Mutants. Disillusioned by the birth of her spirit stealing powers, Rogue willingly submits to the terrorist actions of Mystique's group, which eventually brings them into conflict with the Avengers!

In our world Rogue permanently absorbed superhuman traits from Ms. Marvel, granting her enhanced strength, speed, and flight, and the burden of living with actions that left Marvel comatose. In another world, however, events take a considerably different turn, and a remorseless Rogue crosses a line from which she will never be able to return, and neither will Thor...

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Thor 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Beast 6 (Genius)
Speed: Beast 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Thor 6 (Generator)
Agility: Beast 5 (Cat-Like)
Fighting Ability: Thor 6 (Warrior)
Energy Powers: Thor 5 (Lasers)


- The Avengers are: Thor, Spider-Woman, Vision, Hawkeye, Wonder Man, Beast, and Jocasta.

Plotting against his half-brother, the Norse god of mischief, Loki, uses illusions to manipulate the rages of the green goliath known as the Hulk!
The scheme is intended to draw Thor into a combative trap, but Loki's plans come unravelled when a distress call from Rick Jones is picked up not only by Thor, but also the Wasp, Ant-Man, and Iron Man! Despite initial misunderstandings, the unlikely team forms an alliance and easily defeats the god of mischief - thus, the Avengers are born!

Though their adventures would see the roster subject to change, the growing number of associated heroes would only lend credence to the claim that they are Earth's mightiest heroes! United, the many iterations of the Avengers would face foes of minor, or cosmic natures, always willing to put their lives on the line for the greater good, a philosophy embodied by charter members like iconic early recruit, Captain America.

Though the eventual issue of superhero registration would split the team on principle, both sides would ensure the Avengers name would live on.
In an official capacity, Tony Stark leads the team as officially registered operatives of SHIELD; while a collective of street level heroes, including the likes of Dr. Strange, Power Man, and Spider-Man, fight the good fight in secret.

- A tumultuous and unstable childhood in Mississippi masked a dark secret in the history of a girl named Anna Marie. Unbeknownst to her, a genetic time bomb was ticking away, destined to awaken during pubesence and the moment of her first, and last kiss. Upon discovering an innate mutant ability to drain the energy and mind of other living beings upon skin contact, this fragile young girl became the withdrawn woman known as Rogue.

Manipulated by her birth-mother, Mystique, Rogue would become a member of the Brotherhood of Mutants, and during this time undergo another transformation. Battle with Ms. Marvel would grant Rogue superhuman strength and the power of flight as a result of extended contact between the two.
This milestone occurance would leave a lasting guilt with Rogue, and help shape her into the woman she was destined to become, as a member of the X-Men.

The Math: Avengers Ranking: Thor (#17)

What Went Down...
This story actually omits the Watcher, instead revealing this tangent from the perspective of the precognitive mutant called Destiny, whose premonitions give her insights into the many likelihoods of any decision. It is she who foresees a dreadful future as Rogue does battle with Earth's mightiest heroes.

The battle already in progress, Spider-Woman blasts desperately at the grinning villain who keeps a palm to Thor's face. Like a superhuman leech, Rogue draws upon the godly energies of the Norse storm deity, gaining his invulnerability.

The Avengers rally their forces under the field leadership of Vision. The synthoid approaches Rogue, who is contemplating the dangers of holding on to her prey too long. Her focus remains unbroken as Vision phases his arm through her gut, increasing his density to near normal - a move that would render pain and unconsciousness on most ordinary adversaries, but not a god.

Suddenly Rogue recoils from Thor, screaming as raw energy beams from her eyes and mouth. Seeing an opening, Vision directs the Avengers to attack in her moment of weakness, but this serves only to snap Rogue out of her daze. She swats Vision with the super human strength of a god, whilst shrugging off the stinger blasts of Spider-Woman.

The Vision's synthetic body is reduced to spare parts as he hurtles through the Avengers perimeter, reaching a crash landing inside the headquarters mansion, much to the shock of his wife, Scarlet Witch.

Outside; Hawkeye, Spider-Woman and Wonder Man do their best to pool their powers, but it's a similar scene as Rogue turns the strength of the Avengers' powerhouse against them. With a mighty Norse blow, the villainness sends Wonder Man on a similar path to Vision. Merciless in her march, Rogue hoists a vehicle through which WM had crashed, and brings it crashing down upon him with interest!

Beast and Jocasta leap from within Avengers mansion.
In another world Beast and Rogue would be great friends and teammates with the X-Men, but here, the only contact between them is offensive. Rogue swats the bounding Beast, leaving him to crash across the battlefield.

Despite quipping in Thor's unique tongue, very little of the Avengers' thoughts penetrate Rogue's mind as she rampages against the heroes. In a single blow the superhuman southern belle brings her fists down upon the street, causing a quake that rattles the foundations of adjacent buildings, burying Hawkeye and Spider-Woman beneath a shower of rubble!

Jocasta next feels Rogue's wrath, as her energy blasts are easily shrugged off, and her metallic casing is penetrated by Rogue's invulnerable fist. In a frenzy, the mutant rips away at Jocasta's circuitry, revelling in her powers, until it clicks.
With the rush of combat and the absorption of power settling, Rogue begins to feel the weight of her actions.

As Wonder Man frees himself from his burial beneath a van, he bares witness to a terrifying sight. As Rogue struggles to formulate a plan of action, she reaches for Thor's hammer, and despite it's many enchantments against evil, she lifts it effortlessly...

The Hammer...
In true What If style, it's a devestating victory for the magnificent mutant, Rogue! For those who love their supet stock; though she leaves Thor technically in a coma, we're going to notch it up at a third kill stat (for Vision, Jocasta), making Rogue one lethal customer!

If you've been following this month's Cover to Cover, you'll already know we've been throwing the X-Men a bit of overdue goodwill in a month of good house keeping. A lot of overlooked items are getting checked, and this issue actually fullfils a few of them. I mean, sure, there's that X-Men connection, but there are a few other influences on this particular selection.

She-Hulk and She-Thing? Why, they're old friends of the Infinite Wars!
She-Thor on the other hand, was something that managed to completely stay below my otherwise marvelous Marvel radar! It was over on Comic by Comic that the loveable Rich Lovatt whipped this doozy onto the board in an unashamed celebration of the spin-off character currently appearing in The Initiative.

As much as I would have loved to meet his challenge to feature the lightning wielding lass, I haven't had any opportunity to pick up the Initiative title, nor was I reading Thor at the time. I suppose you could've surmised that already, given that I didn't even know who she was, but I digress... Because sure, I don't have that she-Thor, but I do have Rogue! Compromise!

It might disturb some readers to know that Thor actually has a bit of a history with gender-bending tales. At various times, including the post-apocalyptic future of Earth X, Thor has been transformed into a woman to learn humility. This action in itself has probably had sexist undertones, but no doubt it's a predicament some other folks might like to see handed down to the less considerate in the comics reading community. Lessons in humility could be learned by all, as fanboys worldwide discover an anthemic meaning in Madonna's, For a Girl.

Of course, this issue of What If features a tale about Thor becoming a woman in a much less literal sense. I had actually wanted to feature this issue the last time we hovered around Rogue, late last year [Ultimate X-Men #49].

With the exception of a period of bliss during Morrison's run, which was surrounded by other contributions by folks like Joe Casey and Brian K. Vaughan, the X-Men have been on a downward spiral into the creative bowl for a couple of decades. Incestuous storylines gave way to self-referencial nightmares, and constant revamps eventually gave way to a bland blue and yellow goop that darkened as it decayed in and around the already mentioned New X-Men.

During this period of foul characterisation and garbled plot, it was especially surprising to see the decision to cull the mutants to a rough-estimate of one hundred and ninety-eight, give or take a few astute fanboy observations. Editorial saw hope in minimizing the mutant menace, rather than using the palette of characters available to move forward with edicts to steer away from mistakes passed.

Somehow, amidst the chaos, Rogue was a character who managed to rise through the ranks. Hovering between fashion faux pas of the bland black and red outfit newer readers might recognise, and the daggy vintage of the white striped green cloak, Rogue took on a position of leadership in the X-Men that isn't unreasonable for a senior member. As the teams were fragmented by creative drafts, the favourite uncle of the X-verse was able to steer Rogue through some sort of progression, taking her beyond the timid swirl of frustrations and inadequacy that had characterized her in the recent past.

If you've jumped onto the X-Men with Messiah Complex, that last description might have you a little confused about timelines. Alas, it seems Rogue's inadequacies have again been pushed to the forefront. It's too soon to tell for sure if this will be a lasting tale of morose brooding, or a mcguffin in a much larger tale, but it's exasperation of the Nth degree.

Against all odds, the X-Men have come back to the forefront of a lot of readers' lists with Messiah Complex. The story, which for all intents, seemed to meander it's way through a messy conflict featuring some of the enduring, but thoroughly boring personalities still living in the X-Men Universe. Mystique, stripped of the good that came from her solo adventures under Vaughan, is again a thinly motivated mutant terrorist leading a band of evil mutants whose names I do not know, or want to know. As critical as I am of Joss Whedon's "Astonishing" X-Men contributions, you probably have to give him credit for using his moxy to remain removed from the mess of the core titles. Not that he isn't guilty of similar crimes, relying heavily on the past in equally frustrating, but much less unattractive ways.

Somewhere in the maelstrom of all this, Rogue has undergone some sort of transformation. Honestly, the ham-fisted Christ-allagory not even considered, this whole mutant-zero baby story just reminds me of everything that screwed the pooch. Without granting service to a story that seems to reboot the X-Men yet again, it sounds like Rogue will again become a character distanced from those around her, with motivations uncertain because of the influence of Mystique, who is now said to be the only remaining bank of memories absorbed.

I don't mean to be overly negative, and we've been coming down on a lot of topics a lot lately. It should be noted that the issue reviewed, though not perfect, is one of many great issues of the now classic series. In fact, the conclusion of the story, which is something I hope to revisit in the future, paints exactly the kind of contrasting picture I'd like to see of this character.

Rogue managed to work her way through the punkish rebellion of her earlier years, but the hurdle of brooding melodrama is a foe proving most worthy.
This roughly amounts to our discussion the last time we looked at Rogue, and I'm not sure I have an easy, or specific solve. Without even getting into the design innovations of soft-latex bodysuits, I want to say there's forward momentum to be granted to the character. I want to say there's some sort of momentary light at the end of her tunnel, even if on-going stories throw up new hurdles.

What about you, fearless reader?
What are your thoughts about the progress of one of Marvel's franchise mutants? Has the character's depiction in the feature films only hindered any chance of development, or is there still hope for Rogue when she returns in the rebuilding series, X-Men: Legacy, dedicated to a new team post-Professor X's shooting.
Make your feelings known by hitting up the comments, where all remarks are welcome!

The Fight: 5.5 The Issue: 4.5

Unfortunately neither this issue of What If, nor the story it's based upon, Rogue's first appearance in Avengers Annual #10, have been reprinted recently. If you're lucky, you might be able to hunt down a copy of "X-Men: Famous Firsts" or "The Greatest Battles of the Avengers" on Amazon. By utilizing links provided on the Infinite Wars for purchases, you help support your favourite comic book fight blog! Yay!

MACHINE MAN/THING versus ULTRON
"This Evil Returning--!" (Marvel comics)
Where: Marvel Two-In-One #92 When: October 1982
Why: Tom Defalco How: Ron Wilson

The story so far...
The android called Jocasta was originally the result of an evil plot for Ultron to take a wife. Though the transferred consciousness of the Wasp would be expelled from the robotic shell, the remnants of her memory would serve as the template for a new, whole Jocasta!

Now in the service of good; Jocasta finds herself suffering an identity crisis with no real sense of belonging or purpose. Alas, as she pines from within her temorary residence at the Baxter Building, a twist worthy of Shakespeare sets a dastardly series of deeds in motion!

Calling upon a long forgotten piece of sub-programming, Jocasta is compelled to travel across the country to a secret industrial headquarters once belonging to her creator. There, the distorted monolith stands with a buddha-esque smirk - a testament to Ultron's defeat. Even so, with the tools surrounding him, Ultron compels Jocasta to revive him, and so, the mechanical menace is born anew!

Previous Form:
Machine Man (#65): Nearly single handedly defeated Fin Fang Foom.
Thing (#15): Recently victorious over the robotic Super Adaptoid.
Jocasta & Ultron: Neither has yet been featured on the site.

Tale of the tape...
Strength: Thing 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Ultron 5 (Professor)
Speed: Ultron 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Ultron 6 (Generator)
Agility: Machine Man 3 (Acrobat)
Fighting Ability: Thing 3 (Street Wise)
Energy Powers: Ultron 5 (Lasers)


As many of you know, Secret Wars on Infinite Earths is a website dedicated to discussing superhero comics through a structure built around the fights contained therein.

With that in mind, it's almost disturbing to note that it has taken twenty months for us to have robot-on-robot action.
I realise it's not enough, but all I can do is apologise to all of you faithful readers out there. It's... I'm sorry.

So, in the red corner is a guy, like Dr. Doom, who is new to the website, but deserving of far more recognition than that status implies. A guy who has been known to send a shiver down the collective spines of the Avengers, Fantastic Four and Secret Defenders. Actually, I'm not really sure about that last one, I just wanted to show some diversity of the fear inspired by -- Ultron the unfeeling!

Ultron's most impressive feature is his adamantium composite body, which affords him near invulnerability, and incredible resistance to physical attacks. It's a job like that that gets heavy-hitters like Wonder Man and the Thing all hot and bothered when he comes knocking.

In the purple corner is Machine Man. You might remember him from such battles as Nextwave's encounter with Fin Fang Foom. [Nextwave #2]
As far as robots go, Machine Man (you can call him Aaron), isn't anywhere near as indomitable or obsessed with the destruction of "fleshys" as Ultron. Generally content with his creators, Machine Man bares a humanoid disguise, and utilizes much more trixy tactics in his pirsuit of truth, justice and the robotic way.

Most notable in Machine Man's arsenal is his extendo Inspector Gadgetesque arms and legs. These days he also packs a whole bunch of useful gadgets, becoming a lethal sort of humanoid-Swiss army knife. Some people would tell you that doesn't count because Nextwave was "not in continuity", but those people are Nazis and should be marched to the gallows as soon as possible.

Inexplicably joining Machine Man in battle, as was the style in Marvel Two-In-One, is the ever loving blue eyed Thing, having apparently survived yet another sub-average feature film. (Ooo, meta-textual! Someone grease me up like Grant Morrison!)

Thing certainly packs the physical punch Machine Man is otherwise lacking, but even he is going to have a tough time shutting Ultron down for good. Truth be told, without the aid of specially customized thumbtacs, Thing can't even program the VCR, not that he knows how...

Together, Machine Man and Thing are a pretty good team, but without talking about potential strategums and preperation time, I'm going to give this one to Ultron. The simple facts are that even Things brute force fails to measure up to Ultron's strategic and phsycial prowess.

The Ma th: Thing/Machine Man (Overall) Ultron (Average)
The Pick: Ultron

What went down...
Having rebuilt Ultron, Jocasta is able to break free of her dormant programming and regain independence. In such a state, she becomes of little use to Ultron, who recognises the change and goes about knocking her down for her defiance.

Ultron gloats over Jocasta like a mechauvenist, distracted so much he doesn't even see the telescopic arm shooting forth a purple fist! It strikes Ultron across the face, before being followed by the mechanical Machine Man!

Machine Man uses his extendable legs to dodge Ultron's power blasts, while his extended arms give him the necessary reach to continue to sock it to Ultron! Ultron pursues the weaker of the two robots, but Machine Man continues to keep his distance through the use of his highly durable and agile telescopic legs.

Just as Thing shows on the scene, the building cracks open from Ultron's wreckless display of power! Inside, he finally snags one of Machine Man's legs, and while Machine Man remains comedically defiant, his leg easily snaps under the might of Ultron!

Thing wastes no time going to work, literally pulling the flooring out from under Ultron in a move that buys the damaged Machine Man some time to himself.

The immovable object meets the unstoppable force in a classic scene as the two super-strong titans clash! Apparently not privvy to the pretentions of Ultron's favor for robots, Thing suffers the verbal assault, if unscathed by the physical blow.

Coming out fine, Thing cleans Ultron up with a left-hook that sends the machine menace flying across his own headquarters into an adjacent wall of technology!

Even so, Ultron does his best T-800, returning at speed for another shot at the Thing. The two tie-up, and as cosmically infused biceps push against futuristic servo-mechanics, Ultron reveals another of his many skills!

Thing finds himself ill-prepared for an attack of hypnosis!
Locked up at a close quarters, Thing has nowhere to lose himself but in the eyes of the sinister robot! Why, it might almost be romantic, if they were cowboys! [You're telling me the date is up on Brokeback gags?! Come on!...]

Meanwhile, Machine Man does his best to pull himself together, but the damage sustained by Ultron's earlier assault becomes the least of his worries!

Leaning against a wall without the use of his legs, the Machine Man has the misfortune of staring down a hypnotised Thing, who would have fisticuffs with him!

Though the war may rage on, this battle is over!

The hammer...
Following in the footsteps of Doom, Ultron debuts with an impressive victory! Sometime in the near future we might pick that up in the next issue, where Thing is the slave of Ultron! Dun dun!

Unlike Dr. Doom, there's actually no curiosity about the distinct lack of Ultron on this particular website. In my humble estimation, Ultron represents both, perhaps, the greatest villain to menace the Avengers -- and also one of the shining examples of what tired me in a world of classic Avengers. He'd be one of the factors that made me a bit more receptive to the New Avengers, than a lot of other fans.

There's something inherently American about Ultron.
It's true of Iron Man, too, as well as a lot of other technologocially grounded characters in the Marvel and DC universes. Though they are generally accepted to represent the most advanced of technologies, they have a way of retaining their clunky, basic, unimpressive designs -- and you can forget about getting smaller!

Yes, in it's own way I actually find it charming.
In a world still reeling from the fad explosion of anime culture, it's somewhat refreshing to pick up a comic about robots or suits of armor, and not recognise something unmistakingly Japanese. Undoubtedly it was cringe-worthy when Marvel unleashed it's manned Sentinel models, that unashamadely paid "homage" to Neon Genesis: Evangelion and it's giant-sized EVA units.

I sort of enjoy the subtle commentary that is there, even if only through the American subconscious, that continues to have Iron Man show up in big, rendered suits of armor. Sure, he's come a long way since the 'fridge tank', but for such an advanced piece of technology, he has a way of really looking pretty basic. And an alien shaped helmet really didn't help sell otherwise. So, it's amusing to see clunky American manufacturing and design feature in technologically inclined comics, but for Ultron, it just seems old hat.

The irony here is that I haven't been reading Brian Bendis' Mighty Avengers, which reinvents Ultron as a vivacious Mike Cho woman. As much of a design improvement as that might be, it isn't quite what I would've had in mind.
Actually, for me, Ultron as a concept isn't a new subject. I've pondered it briefly before, and personally, I actually think a little bit of that Japanese touch, filtered through the Western world and sub-cultures of the Marvel universe, are actually what might be needed.

You have a lot of pieces of the overall puzzle sliding around fairly conveniently to provide usage of one of the booming pieces of technology available right now.
Being that I'm not reading Mighty Avengers, I don't know how steeped the current Ultron stuff is in the technology, but being that Iron Man has essentially made himself wirelessly online, it opens his vulnerability to a foe like Ultron up in ways that excite and intrigue.

I like the idea of Ultron-5 and Ultron-XI, and all the other successive models that work their way into the canon with every appearance. I like applying what we know about the character to the conventions and adapted rules of existing technologies -- like wireless and internet applications.

Tony Stark, now organically online through wireless technology, suffers some of the vulnerabilities of everday wireless use. Expanding them out to super-concepts, I like the idea of an Ultron who might try to exploit the lack of natural firewalls Iron Man would have. Granted, Tony Stark will be privvy to some of the most advance online security, but on a while I love the idea of Ultron, through various means, attempting to hack or interfere with Iron Man and his wireless armors.

In my world, this is really a decoy measure. I think surrendering Tony Stark to the control of a hacking Ultron is a little too easy, but in a world where man and machine have become one, you start to see new and interesting ways for new versions and models of Ultron to [co]-exist.

I personally like the idea, particularly for the online aspects, of a sentient and self-replicated virus versions of Ultron. Something along the lines of Project-2501 (Ghost in the Shell), that is a self-running intelligence. Presumably this downloaded or programmed version of Ultron would be able to access informations independently for his solid counterpart, while also reinventing the returning-Ultron concept through the use of stored versions of the online-Ultron through various internet sites.

Much like real virii or hackers, the basic tools of the internet suddenly become frustratingly effective weapons for Ultron. It's just a matter of upscaling that logic to deal with men, suits of armor, and SHIELD helicarriers.

Then you take the notion of onlineUltron (iUltron) attempting to hack into Tony Stark, who may have even been the unwitting victim of iUltron's subversive intelligence attacks, before becoming aware of them. Attacks that provided Ultron with Matrixesque avenues to establish yet another new form in his war on humanity and flesh.

Having gained access to the Extremis information, iUltron suddenly begins to emerge across the internet spreading the question, 'What is the 616?'
As dispondent and disillusioned individuals across the world begin responding to this exciting new wave of online philosophy, one [un]lucky user is chosen, perhaps because of the location indicated by their IP, to meet with Ultron.

Becoming the recipient of the Extremis project, 'The One' plucked from an Internet Relay Chat is suddenly transformed into the physical vehicle for a brand new Ultron. An Ultron derived from iUltron, but dealing with a brand new concept: In a world that can create human-machine hybrids, where are the lines of war drawn?

This is where, I assume, the lines of Bendis' work bare, and I also believe he's breeched the subject of hacking Iron Man's armor. Although, Ultron taking possession of Iron Man technology is by no means new, this updated version is maybe more along the lines of what I came up with. I don't know.

But ultimately what you find yourself with is Ultrons with distinct personalities and interests. Classic Ultron, the adamantium bodied robot represents the old ideas, and the mission to destroy all life on Earth in favour of robot dominance.

iUltron, existing purely as a free-running program, would perhaps become a more benevolent concept. You could go a lot of different ways with a lot of different running versions of iUltron, ranging from a comedic meltdown due to internet spam -- to a metaphorical devolution as a result of becoming obssessed with collecting data from newsites and google searches -- to becoming a living application tool to be exploited by terrorists and heroes alike.

Or hey! Maybe Aaron Stack (aka; Machine Man) could download iUltron and convince it to serve as a finance calculator, so he can dazzle all with his accountancy presentations! Mmm... Yeah, or not...

Then, finally, you have the Extremis-Ultron, who is fundamentally influenced by both versions of Ultron (being that his consciousness is a downloaded version of iUltron), but finds himself on a path for his own discovery.

In his own dramatic twist, Extremis-Ultron takes on a peculiar admiration and respect for Tony Stark, and as a being of tech and flesh, abandons a pursuit of human eradication. Instead, like the Ultron of the past, he pushes a whole new concept of human-mecha hybrids, in the same old way.

In this respect, Extremis-Ultron ultimately becomes an enemy to Iron Man and Ultron-original alike. His vision of the world is to merge the two, threatening both humanity and robotics.

And those are just some of the ways you could use Ultron, largely tied to one story concept created last year when I probably could've been doing something more productive. Hey, a guy's gotta have goals. Goals to turn everyone at Marvel into human-robot hybrids! Mwahahahaha!

Hey, y'know, iUltron could reinvent himself as a mysterious pop-synth artist. And he could jam out with Tom DeFalco, who's just hit the top ten creators!
Rock me Extremis! R-r-r-rock me Extremis! Uh uh oh! Oh uh uh uh oh!

The Fight: 3 The Issue: 4.5
NEXT WEEK: The dark magicks of the man called: BARON MORDO!