VENOM versus SPIDER-MAN

Maximum Carnage, Part Five: Over The Line! (Marvel)
Where: Spectacular Spider-Man #201 When: June 1993 Why: JM DeMatteis How: Sal Buscema

The Story So Far...
Cletus Kasady has re-bonded with the Carnage symbiote and escaped the Ravencroft maximum security facility in a violent slaughter that spills into New York City! There he finds an adopted family of killers to take the massacre city-wide: Shriek, Doppelganger, and the Demogoblin!

After failing to stop them alone: Venom sought to rekindle a desperate alliance with his old enemy, Spider-Man -- but not even a team-up with Black Cat and the vengeful Cloak could stop the destruction! Now the heroes are fighting just to survive as a Manhattan Warehouse burns around them!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Venom 5 (Super-Human)
Intelligence: Spider-Man 5 (Professor)
Speed: Spider-Man 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Draw 5 (Marathoner)
Agility: Spider-Man 5 (Cat-Like)
Fighting: Draw 3 (Street Wise)
Energy: Venom 2 (Projectiles)
Total: Spider-Man 29 (Metahuman)

The fallout from Chapter Four has left our heroes worse for wear, and at each other's throats, as Maximum Carnage continues!

Carnage and his adopted family of demented killers have been left to continue unabated after triggering a dramatic warehouse explosion -- and that's enough to strain the unlikely alliance between Venom and Spider-Man!

Die hard fight fans might want to skip ahead to coverage of Chapter Six, because this isn't really a battle on the same level as their classic clash in Amazing Spider-Man #347, or even the more obscure Spider-Man Family #2.

Venom has been drastically weakened by the symbiote's vulnerability to fire, and Spidey's mind is on rescuing Black Cat from the burning warehouse wreckage.

For a self-professed "Lethal Protector" like Eddie Brock it's difficult to accept that Spider-Man would choose rescuing an ally over stopping the murder spree that could continue at the hands of Carnage and his crew.

Venom's skewed sense of justice has pitted him against various heroes and would-be allies over the years, such as Ghost Rider, Iron Man, and even DC's Superman. With an old enemy like Peter Parker an alliance is extra dicey, and his sense of responsibility for the creation of Carnage makes it all the more personal!

History: Spider-Man (1-0-1)

The Tape: Spider-Man Ranking: Spider-Man (#2)

What Went Down...

The alien symbiote drips from Eddie Brock's body like a thick ooze as he struggles to crawl through the broken beams & boarding of an unknown rock band's burning storage warehouse.

The massive fire drastically weakens the living costume that supplies Venom with his powers, but still he furiously compels Spider-Man to leave the inferno and resume pursuit of Carnage and his cadre of killers.

Spidey feels confident enough to leave Venom to fend for himself, while he goes deeper into the wreckage to rescue Black Cat from certain immolation!

Brock crawls his way out of the burning building, desperately attempting not to save his own life but those of countless others who might be killed by Carnage.

The crawl becomes a stumble as Brock rises to his feet - only to collapse back down into near unconsciousness as the building behind him explodes!

With Black Cat safely under his arm, Spider-Man soon arrives upon Eddie Brock: face down and motionless with tar-like strips strewn across his body.

They slowly begin to thicken as the symbiote revivifies and Venom regains his strength.

Spidey gently helps a rattled Black Cat to the ground, while Venom rises to his feet, suddenly enveloped in his customary black costume. He asks about Spider-Man's success stopping Carnage -- and doesn't like the answer he gets.

Incensed by Spider-Man's refusal to leave Black Cat to "roast" -- Venom lunges at his temporary ally with talon-like claws narrowly missing his injured ribs!

They question each other's sanity and ethics, with Spider-Man deeming a decision to leave either of his allies to die tantamount to murder. It's a prospect that inspires violent ideas for reprisal in the dual minds of Venom.

Black Cat enters the fray to cool things down: "You're really a piece of work, Brock! You get mad at the spider for saving me -- then waste time trying to bash his head in, while those maniacs get farther and farther away!"

The wake-up call steers Venom's rage towards the Cat, but what bruises his ego most is that she's absolutely right. The real enemy is Carnage.

The Hammer...

The tension is ratcheting up, but I think it's fair to say this wasn't much of a fight. Venom threw the only actual punch, and the rest is verbal sparring and philosophical differences. A non-starter ended by everyone getting back on the same page -- kinda...

You might've expected Black Cat to be the hero who calls it quits after a building collapsed on her, but it's actually Spider-Man who decides the alliance isn't working out for him. He simply cannot reconcile with the cutthroat tactics Venom demands -- and Black Cat is agreeing with.

After berating her former squeeze for treating her like a lowly damsel needing rescue; Cat further chides him for choosing her life over the countless lives Carnage could already be taking elsewhere in the city.

It's a moral split that actually sees an irate Black Cat following Venom back into battle, despite a violent history together, and his total willingness to throw her life away.

The duo will reconvene with Cloak on Fifth Avenue, where arriving mere minutes after reports of Carnage's rampage will mean more lives lost to the senseless slaughter.

So far every chapter of Maximum Carnage has featured one or more big battles, but Part Five sadly scales back the serious superhero smackdown right as master of action Sal Buscema joins the party! What we're left with is a couple of short skirmishes and near misses, but there was no way I was going to skip this issue!

Spectacular Spider-Man #201 ignites the fire of the crossover by following up the explosive previous chapter with a heavy sense of consequence and drama.

The issue might see heroes and villains returning to their respective corners, but there's no shortage of action and excitement. In fact, this always struck me as one of the most impactful issues of the Maximum Carnage crossover.

It seemed like Venom and Black Cat were going to tip the scales back in favour of the good guys, but all they really did was accumulate more injuries.

The issue announces its drama with the very first page: A surprisingly cinematic opening, despite its use of a traditional 9 panel grid.

On either side of Page 1 is a column of three panels, each showing an intense close-up of a roaring inferno. They're interspersed with discrete narration boxes for creator credits. Buscema's inks generate a sense of violent animation, given blistering heat by colorist Bob Sharen's use of vivid yellows, orange, and white.

Down the centre of the page are three claustrophobic mugshots: our heroes -- each showing distinct signs of distress!

If the cliffhanger of Black Cat's torn glove poking out of warehouse wreckage got your mind racing at the end of the previous issue -- her wide-eyed grimace, face pouring with sweat, makes the danger all the more personal, and kicks the drama up a whole extra level right on Buscema's first page!

Below the cat is Venom: mouth agape, with symbiote bleeding away to reveal Eddie Brock's barely open right eye. The salivating, bulging monster responsible for so much terror in previous Spider-Man stories is gone -- reduced to a pathetic mortal barely able to act. The situation is real bad for the good guys.

Something about the destruction of that warehouse, and seeing our heroes in such a vulnerable and battered state was arresting. Spidey is already nursing busted ribs from Chapter One, which were aggravated in Chapter Two. That was also the battle that appeared to claim the life of Dagger, which we learn has left Cloak experiencing bouts of dizziness and weakness.

There's an obvious physical toll mounting throughout each issue, but the mental strain is showing, too. That will continue to permeate the story as the heroes endure further punishment, and New York City itself becomes engulfed in violent madness as Carnage's killing spree inspires a wave of likeminded acts.

When I was doing my best to cobble the event together from newsstands back in 1993 -- this was the issue that convinced me it was a story unlike most from Marvel. I didn't have the frame of reference back then, but it strikes me that the format is similar to the saga structures more common in Shonen Jump manga. There's a late era Dragon Ball Z vibe to the weight of temporary defeat, inter-personal drama, and city-wide destruction the heroes will later discover.

We love blockbuster superhero fights on Secret Wars on Infinite Earths, but to put it all into perspective, it helps to take stock of the little battles, as well. Today's skirmish provides context for future installments, while also reminding us that the classic Venom/Spidey rivalry doesn't always erupt into a fight to the death.

If you crave a more substantial struggle -- we've got you covered! You can find well over 600 featured fights in order of publisher, series, and issue number by diving in to the Secret Archive! Or follow links throughout this post to uncover key issues and specific topics relevant to your interests.

You can get ahead of the reading and see the whole thing for yourself by picking up a collected edition of the Maximum Carnage storyline. By using Amazon links provided to do any of your online shopping you'll not only get a convenient deal, but also be supporting the site at no extra cost!

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Winner: Inconclusive (Draw)
#2 (--) Spider-Man
#16 (--) Venom (Symbiote)
#50 (--) Venom (Eddie Brock)
#136 (+2) Black Cat [+1 assist]

TEAM VENOM versus CARNAGE FAMILY

Team Venom: Maximum Carnage, Chapter Four (Marvel)
Where: Spider-Man #35 When: June 1993
Why: David Michelinie How: Tom Lyle

The Story So Far...
Cletus Kasady has escaped Ravencroft maximum security and re-bonded with the Carnage symbiote!

The massacre of innocents unfolds into a city-wide tour of mayhem when Carnage is joined by Shriek, and their adopted pet, the clawed Spider-Doppelganger!

A failed attempt to stop the Carnage Family in Central Park leads a badly injured Venom to seek refuge at the apartment of his old nemesis: Peter Parker. He wants to form an alliance to take Carnage down just like they did last time he was loose.

While Venom & Spidey are out of action -- Cloak goes on a manhunt to avenge the death of Dagger by scouring the city. The odds are already against him, but when he finds Carnage and his allies hiding in an old rock band's storage warehouse they'll have another killer to introduce him to!

Tale of the Tape...
Strength: Venom 5 (Super-Human)
Intelligence: Spider-Man 5 (Professor)
Speed: Spider-Man 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Carnage 5 (Marathoner)
Agility: Cloak 7 (Intangible)
Fighting: Spider-Man 3 (Street Wise)
Energy: Shriek 5 (Lasers)
Total: Spider-Man 29 (Metahuman)

Team Venom is: Venom, Black Cat and Spider-Man, with Cloak.

Venom first learned of the trouble in Manhattan during Part 2, making the trek to confront today's foes alone in the previous issue.

We didn't get to see any of the fight itself, but Eddie Brock showed up on Peter Parker's doorstep on the verge of passing out, with his symbiote in tatters. That was enough to convince Spider-Man to let his former arch-nemesis bunk on the couch while he recovered -- much to the objections of his wife, Mary-Jane.

When Mary-Jane storms out Spidey turns to Felicia Hardy for advice -- but she insists on tagging along as Black Cat. The threat is too great for her to ignore -- even though she has her own bad blood with Venom!

The Carnage Family is: Carnage, Shriek, Doppelganger, and Demogoblin.

After Carnage slaughtered his way out of Ravencroft, he hooked up with Shriek & Doppelganger, who did a number on Spidey in Spider-Man Unlimited #1. Efforts by Cloak & Dagger to help even the sides turned sour when Dagger was seemingly killed by Shriek in Web of Spider-Man #101.

After their skirmish with Venom; the makeshift family of psycho-killers picked up another likeminded ally who thrashed Spidey in Amazing Spider-Man #378! Demogoblin's war against sinners at first turned him against the Carnage Family earlier in Spider-Man #35, but they soon found mutual interests.

The addition of the demonic zealot makes a four-on-one handicap when Cloak catches up with them. In his grief, Cloak's gone on a vengeful one-man quest to bring the bad guys down -- and it could get him killed!

Venom and Black Cat are willing to do whatever it takes to stop Carnage, but Spidey only agrees to team-up on the proviso he'll stop anyone on either side who tries to kill. Will that save Cloak and stop the bad guys? Let's find out!

The Tape: Team Venom Ranking: Spider-Man (#2)

What Went Down...

Just as Carnage is about to lead his demented family on a fresh killing spree through the city -- Cloak appears in the shadows to divert their attentions!

Ever since the demise of Dagger, the hero has used his dark force powers to teleport into dives across the city. Paying special attention to those once frequented by Shriek has paid dividends, but his strategy failed to take into account the horrible mismatch he faces against four killers!

A powerful sonic blast escapes the warehouse as Cloak is besieged by Shriek!

He doubles over in pain from the blow, but remains defiant as his Cloak easily absorbs a stream of hellfire sent forth by Demogoblin. Its absorbed into the abyss of the Dark Dimension. Not so another sound blast from behind by Shriek!

The sound and fury knocks Cloak to the ground. Carnage orders Doppelganger to move in to finish him -- but Shriek's earlier attacks caught the attention of Spider-Man and a cadre of allies who arrives to come to Cloak's aid!

The cavalry streams into the warehouse through a hole in the roof, Spidey dropping in with a web swinging fly kick that knocks Demogoblin from his glider!

Black Cat sets her sights on Shriek, but the scream queen summons her loyal pet Demogoblin to catch the kitty by the ankle with his razor webbing.

The sharp substance starts to cut through Black Cat's boot, but the "polarized mesh claws" in her gloves make light work of slicing the webbing away.

Meanwhile, Venom only has eyes for his loathsome offspring.

He confronts Carnage, who boasts about beating both Venom and Spider-Man even before he found a family to help him. A factor soon mitigated when Venom's arm spews forward to push Carnage into the waiting folds of Cloak's cape!

Carnage throws out his own symbiote extensions, tethering himself to the other side of the warehouse. Before he escapes, he projects stabbing prods that poke violently at Cloak's inner shadows seeking to do damage to the wounded hero.

Spider-Man sees the counter-attack unfold, but turns his attentions to wrapping Shriek up in webs so she can't unleash her powers on a recovering Black Cat!

Carnage calls time on the skirmish, asking Demogoblin and Shriek to bring the house down. Demogoblin gets to work filling the warehouse with hellfire, while Shriek blasts herself free of webs and finishes the roof with violent sonic blasts!

Cloak is able to teleport out of the building, but its up to the other heroes to scrambled clear of the demolition as the building begins to collapse in flames all around them!

Spider-Man and Venom race to swing to safety, but the flames have weakened Venom too greatly. Not only can he not pursue the escaping villains -- he slips into unconsciousness and falls back towards the burning building!

Spidey also notices Black Cat did not escape in time. Her limp hand pokes out of the wreckage as flames threaten to engulf both of Spider-Man's helpless allies! He must now make a choice to save their lives, or the lives of those Carnage will kill.

The Hammer...
It looked like it was coming down to a stalemate, but the last minute gambit for escape proved to be a winning strategy for Carnage!

The flaming destruction unleashed by Demogoblin and Shriek not only helped the bad guys get away -- it also endangered the lives of Venom and Black Cat!

It's worth noting that we established hellfire doesn't harm the Venom symbiote in the earlier published Ghost Rider/Blaze: Spirits of Vengeance #6. It might appear as though this was a contradiction of that, but there were bound to be a lot of flammable goods stored in the warehouse that could've ignited to harm Venom.

Spider-Man #35 leaves us with Spidey wrestling with divided responsibilities to protect the public -- whom Carnage & company threaten to slaughter -- and his immediately imperiled allies. No prizes for guessing he'll abandon chase in the next issue to double-back to save his allies.

As noted in The Tape: Venom technically entered the struggle with an off-camera skirmish in the previous issue, but this is the first time he's united with Spidey & friends, and actually appeared in the fight.

It would be tempting to feature the prior Central Park battle, but there's really nothing to speak of. It's three pages: Venom arriving, Shriek & Doppelganger dramatically sneaking up on him, and Eddie arriving at the Parker apartment with his symbiote in tatters. He probably lost, but we have no way of knowing how, or if he actually managed to hold his own and escape an inconclusive result.

Today's featured fight from Part 4 is the one that really fulfills the promise of that kickass Mark Bagley cover from the previous issue! His official arrival and the four-hero team-up is when Maximum Carnage feels like it really kicks into gear.

I always found the moment when Venom and Cloak double-team Carnage to be a particularly arresting image. I don't think they've had a lot to do with each other, before or since, but the intuitive union of their power and disdain is a particularly thrilling part of the fight. Especially after Cloak was in such bad shape.

Why didn't Cloak just teleport everyone to safety when it all 'hit the fan'?

For one: If things were that simple we wouldn't have a dramatic cliffhanger leading to Part 5! It's also worth remembering Cloak's state of mind since the apparent death of Dagger in Web of Spider-Man #101.

He was rash enough to rush into a four-on-one beating. Suffering from the injuries of that decision, Cloak might not have been clear-headed, or strong enough, to rescue his allies from the heat of battle. Not at all hard to believe.

Things look pretty grim for Black Cat, whose hand appears sticking out of rubble in an exciting tease for the next issue. The torn glove is a superb image. One of many created by late artist Tom Lyle, particularly is this back half of the issue.

Lyle pulls out some top shelf action shots in this battle, the second of the issue, but some of his best just feature characters dropping in to a scene.

The fight starts with a particularly nice vertical panel showing Venom gleefully leading the charge, dropping into the warehouse in foreground with his tongue hanging between closed teeth and a simple "Yum!" in dialogue. Classic!

I don't like to infringe on issues with too many images. I like to inform, but leave you with plenty to discover for yourselves should you hunt down the issues. I had to include a few extra panels from this one, though. Just look at that cityscape above with the villains fleeing into the night. Good stuff!

There's something about Lyle's human figures I really enjoy. They're very tight and solid. His Spidey and Venom are particular favourites. Cloak looks awesome, too.

The lines are solid, but fluid. Some of that credit has to go to inker Scott Hanna, whose finishes are beautiful. Colorists Kevin Tinsley and Ericka Moran also contribute to the premium feel of the finished art. I'm sorry my scans don't fully honor their work. I hope newer reprints are able to live up to the original better.

Scrambling to find issues on newsstands back in 1993 was very exciting and I truly wondered what would happen next. These early chapters are my favourites, but you won't have to wait to get answers if you check out the Epic Collection Amazing Spider-Man Maximum Carnage collection!

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Winners: Shriek, Demogoblin & Carnage (w/ Doppelganger)
#85 (+67) Shriek
#120 (+227) Carnage (Cletus Kasady)
#401 (+537) Demogoblin
#97 (+14) Doppelganger [+1 assist]
#2 (--) Spider-Man
#16 (--) Venom (Symbiote)
#48 (-3) Venom (Eddie Brock)
#134 (-15) Black Cat
#985 (-4) Cloak

HELLCAT versus BLACK CAT
Catfight (Marvel comics)
Where: Spider-man Family #1 When: April 2007
Why: Fred Van Lente How: Federica Manfredi

The story so far...
Watch out, Rama-Tut! There are a couple of new cats in Chi-town, and they're about to come head-to-head in an afterhours catfight at the museum!

Black Cat is looking to drum up some business for her new security service, by personally testing the vulnerabilities of the museum's protection. Little does she know, Chicago is home to the heroic Hellcat!

It looks like Hellcat is going to have to defend her territory, but is this rookie hero's kung-fu a match for the cagey guile or the crafty Black Cat? Or will passing this Black Cat's path prove to be a turn of luck for the worst? Stay tuned!

Previous Form:
Black Cat (#25): Aided in the defeat of the Sinister Twelve, Carnage, & Venom.
Hellcat: Has not yet been featured on the site.

Tale of the tape...
Strength: Hellcat 3 (Athlete)
Intelligence: Black Cat 3 (Straight A)
Speed: Draw 3 (Athlete)
Stamina: Hellcat 4 (Athlete)
Agility: Draw 4 (Gymnast)
Fighting Ability: Hellcat 3 (Street Wise)
Energy Powers: Draw 2 (Projectiles)


Okay, set your watches people. I have until the end of this entry to come up with something thought provoking enough to fulfill my blogdream of getting a link of When Fangirls Attack. Why? Because it's an all-girl slugfest, of course!!!

As you'll have already gathered from the intro, this particular story takes place sometime early in the careers of the respective femme fatales. As always, the tape reads to represent a fairly broad representation of the characters, rather than reflecting the time placement, or status of the characters in this given story.

Two key abilities aren't particularly reflected in the tape:
- Hellcat's telekinetic abilities, attained during her time trapped in hell. As it were, I'm not quite sure Secret Earths is ready to recognise these powers obtained in the late 90's mini.

- Black Cat's bad luck powers. A standard I'm more inclined to accept, being a reader cultivated mostly through things like eighties Spider-man comics. Although, unless I'm mistaken, she hasn't had the ability to effect luck since Dr. Strange magically lifted her hex from Spider-man.

If we were to remove both powers from the equation, the fight is essentially boiled down to two skilled combatants with independently cultivated fighting skills. Each represents the height of human physical conditioning, although her ties to the super-natural tend to point the tape in favour of Hellcat.

Likewise, while Black Cat is no schlub in the field of ass-kickery, she generally exhibits less refined and martial fighting skills than the combative Hellcat.
To compensate, Black Cat needs to call upon her instictive cunning and guile, taking full advantage of her moral amiguity to play a little dirty.

I'm not sure if it would be enough to compensate for Hellcat's skill, but I at least like to think Black Cat is the more confident of the two. Hellcat has seen a lot of action, but Black Cat is the more naturally evolved character, and more confident from inception. That said...

The Math: Hellcat (Champion Class)
The Pick: Hellcat

What went down...
Having done away with the solitary guard, and worked her way into the laser secured Egyptian exibit; Black Cat closes in on a rare artifact, blissfully unaware that another, yellow suited cat has been watching her every move.

From a perch behind an Egyptian bust, the Hellcat leaps down at her unsuspecting prey!

The Black Cat manages to get a defensive leg up, contorting her and her attacker as they tumble to the ground.

They part, Black Cat extending a leg in a crouching mule kick, but Hellcat is quick to parry.

Snatching the Black Cat's ankle, she uses the wreckless move to turn Black Cat's momentum around, tossing her into one of the exibit walls.

Knocked silly by the impact, the Black Cat doesn't even find her way back into the fray. Hellcat utilizes hidden cables in her suit's gloves. Shooting her tethered claws, Hellcat wraps the would-be burglar up with ease, dropping her to the ground in an uncoscious heap.

Inspecting the Cat's bag, the Hellcat discovers not stolen goods, but rather tape and mirrors -- equipment for entry into the museum. Turning back to the artifact in the center of the laser-filled room, she notices at the foot of the statue a card that reads -- "Your security stinks. Want to improve it? Call me @ 555-BCAT"

As the recovered security guard comes to and sounds the alarm, the Black Cat's uniquely noble intentions dawn on Hellcat.

With a team of armed guards on their way, Hellcat uses the talons in her gloves to cut-free the Black Cat, and helps her escape without a second spare!

On the roof of the museum, Hellcat warns Black Cat off peddling her scam in Chicago as long as it's her turff. Black Cat playfully considers giving New York a shot, before comparing her own status as a novice to Patsy Walker's.
Black Cat tosses Hellcat's wallet to her, and takes off into the city skyline.

The hammer...
Though a peaceful resoluton was met, this one undoubtedly goes to Hellcat! X-52, why don't you tell her what she's won?... X-52?...

So, anyway... Through the wonders of international timezones I'm going to call this a Friday 13th entry, even though it's now the fourteenth here in the future. It was for this reason I took the opportunity to grab at this fight (Black Cat, get it?) that was something I've wanted to do since the last feature taken from the superb first issue of the multi-story collecting, Spider-man Family.

Not only is it a chance to take a look at a couple of interesting, more street levelled characters, but it's also one of those rare opportunities to do an all-girl fight! I'm sure they're out there, but without any kind of agenda requiring it, I tend not to seek them out. The last one was Skrull-Elektra/Ronin, I think.

Speaking of which, it was there we discussed the strength of female characters, and the often all-too derivative nature of their characters. [New Avengers #27]
So, we're not going to get the girls to talk about us by revisiting that. Likewise, the discussion of realistic violence in female-centric comics [Superman/Batman #15] is already covered, so what's left? Obviously, boobs.

Most commentary-based blogsites have a predisposed fixation with the female breast. You honestly have to wonder if some blogs would survive without the bouyancy of characters like Powergirl, who provides regular new material in cover shots, and a wealthy backlog of ironic panels, and kitschy humorous situations.

Without sounding smug, here at Secret Earths the female breast has lots it's fascination. Long ago we resigned to the fact that, like human male superheroes, the physiques in question may challenge the rules imposed by reality.
Nay, they may even laugh in the face of the Greek and Roman models of the ultimate man or woman, but they do so whilst also pushing most other facets of reality beyond the believable fold.

Not to say there aren't actually men and women out there who do resemble some comic characters. It may well mortify readers to know in my lifetime I have often found myself in physical activities where the most Liefeldian of positions were required. Yes, while my chest may not be inclined to open like a refridgerator door to gaze upon the reader at-right; twisted backs and taut calves are a staple of many-a sporting activity!

So, what am I really saying?
Well, I guess my point is, you can have your one-panel witicisms and distanced observations of the human form. Those things have their place, but maybe somewhere in the back of your mind it might pay to wonder -- is it really that shocking? Are these things not facilitated in many-a clothing store?

And besides, what are a few tentacles between heroes for hire?
Heyooooohhhhh! Went there!

The Fight: 3 The Issue: 7

THE SINISTER TWELVE versus THE AVENGERS
Last Stand: Part III of IV (Marvel comics)
Where: Marvel Knights: Spider-man #11 When: April 2005
Why: Mark Millar How: Terry & Rachel Dodson

The story so far...
For the entirety of Peter Parker's career one villain has stood ahead of the rest of them, being the first to discover his true identity, and terrorize him in both his alias and civilian identity. Few villains have shaped Spider-man's life the way Norman Osborn has, aka the Green Goblin.

Finally behind bars, Osborn continues to have an influence as Mac Gargan, the Scorpion, sets in motion a contingency plan arranged years earlier between the two lethal villains. A plan that instructed Scorpion to kidnap an elderly woman should he ever go down -- a woman named May Parker!

Having helped his oldest foe to escape prison; Spider-man, along with the Black Cat, walks right into another of his grand schemes bringing together an assembly of Spidey's most lethal of foes as the Sinister Twelve!
With each villain sponsored by Osborn and his advanced technologies, it seems like certain doom for Spider-man and Black Cat, but help may just be on the way!

Previous Form:
Spider-man (#1): Recorded victories against Green Goblin, Venom, Scorpion, Sandman & Tombstone.
Black Cat (#36): Aided in defeats of the Venom Symbiote as well as Carnage.
Venom (#80): Aided in defeat of Jack Flag as member of Thunderbolts.
Green Goblin: Norman Osborn has not yet been featured on the site.
Avengers [#2]: Victories over Secret Avengers, She-Hulk & Atlantis.
Fantastic Four [#6]: Lodged a strong victory against the Frightful Four.

Tale of the tape...
Strength: Thing 6 (Invincible)
Intelligence: Mr. Fantastic 6 (Genius)
Speed: Lizard 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Iron Man 6 (Generator)
Agility: Sandman 7 (Unlimited)
Fighting Ability: Captain America 6 (Warrior)
Energy Powers: Human Torch 7 (Solar Power)


Okay, so I like to play it sentimentally coy in the opener, but yes. We're fixing for the Avengers to jump in at the last minute, which means this goes from a slaughter to a bloody war between the two super powered factions!

There's a curvy buttload of characters present in these Dodson pencils, so allow me an opportunity to roll call right at the beginning:

The Sinister Twelve: Green Goblin, Venom (Scorpion), Sandman, Lizard, Vulture, Electro, Shocker, Chameleon, Hydro-Man, Hammerhead, Boomerang and Tombstone.

The Avengers: Spider-man, Black Cat, Yellowjacket, Thing, Human Torch, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Daredevil, Iron Man and Captain America.

Whew! That's quite an assembly!
With so many characters, it's going to be tough to really draw any concise conclusions. The versatility of strengths and weaknesses really makes this a mixed bag of conclusions, but with characters like the Fantastic Four, Yellowjacket and Iron Man on the job, certainly the heroes are coming well prepared.

The Sinister Twelve roughly divides fifty-fifty for heavy hitters, and street performers. Guys like Hammerhead, Chameleon and even Boomerang, Tombstone and Vulture are going to have limited success where combatting many of the heroes assembled are concerned. In individual breakdowns I might give them a better shot, but we're talking The Avengers!

Sandman and Hydro-Man both present widespread potential problems for the heroes. Given the nature of their respective powers, they can tackle multiple opponents efficiently, whilst also remaining relatively intangible, and subsequently immune to attack.

This is the story that introduces Mac Gargan to the Venom Symbiote, which also means while he presents a potent threat, there's margin for inexperience. Although, teething problems are going to be fairly minute, down to adjustments to the Symbiote's powers and minor communication problems between the host and costume. Otherwise, the already impression Scorpion is only going to be augmented even further than perhaps even the likes of Eddie Brock.

Green Goblin could potentially tackle with the likes of Iron Man, but even he seems somehow dwarfed by the power packed by the majority of heroes who will provide back-up in this scenario. It's hard to really properly break up the twenty-two parts and anticipate the elimination of one over the other.
I guess that's why we have a system...

The Math: Sinister Twelve (Total) Avengers (Average)
The Pick: The Avengers

What went down...
Having aided the Green Goblin's escape from Rykers prison, Spider-man and Black Cat find themselves set upon by the lethal foes of Spider-man, gathered by the Goblin as -- The Sinister Twelve!

Contrary to Norman's plans which involved outfitting many of the villains in more advanced versions of their standing equipment, Mac Gargan shows up wearing the Venom Symbiote, instead of Osborn's upgraded Scorpion costume.
Ever the consumate planner, Osborn is understandably miffed by the shift in affairs, disturbed less by the fact that Scorpion is "wrong", but that he defied him.

Jetting around on his glider, the Goblin promises to settle matters once he's finished murdering Spidey's wife, Mary-Jane Watson. Charming.
The tiff between the two senior villains garners the attentions of the others assembled, who perhaps look on out of curiosity, or question of how the development effects their position in the plan. Either way, Spidey uses the opportunity to strike!

Spidey shoots web and throws his leg out, instructing the Black Cat to do the same, as they prepare to quite literally fight for their lives!

The Cat nails the ravenous Lizard with a stiff kick, while Spidey frog leaps over the Vulture's head. As though willing it to happen, he thinks of the Black Cat, "make it count, baby."

With the proportionate speed and agility of a spider, Spider-man leaps across the battle field scoring hits against the Sandman and Shocker, while Black Cat does her best with the Lizard and Electro in the background.

Scorpion answers Chameleon's cries for a result, propelling himself from his rooftop vantage point to collide mid-air with the leaping Spider-man. He drives his agile body hard into nearby crates that line the dock area.

The devestating blow distracts the Cat long enough for bad luck to come her way in the form of Electro. He fires off a charge that rattles her to the core!
The attack incurs the unlikely fury of the Vulture, who had called dibs on Black Cat for an encounter that left him badly beaten and injured in an eye. The intervention of Shocker rallies the aggressions of the villains back to Spider-man, whom they all have motive to destroy.

Scorpion, still on top of Spidey taunts him; "Hear that, Spider-man? They all want a piece of you now. And you know what? They're gonna get it. We're gonna carve our names in your corpse and hang it from the nearest flagpole."

Staring death in the face, Peter Parker's resolve remains undying.
With the total of his super human strength, he sends the new Venom flying through the pack of circling villains. Even resigned to the fact he's going to die, Spider-man stands valiantly before the gathered villains.

A blast of water from Hydro-Man sends Spidey into the air, where Lizard descends from a flying leap, soon to be followed a flocking mass of evil. Sandman, Hydro-Man, Electro, Lizard and Vulture all grab on to get their fill.

At that moment, overlooking the dock, a shadowed figure with winged tips protruding from his head raises a finger. "On my mark, ladies and gentlemen..."

Like a miracle, the Avengers assemble.

Daredevil swings in with a kick that topples Venom, while Iron Man plucks an unsuspecting Lizard and Tombstone, and flies them high above the docks where they can do no harm.

The Thing heads for an old friend, scooping up Sandman as well as the Shocker in his mighty grip, while Human Torch and Captain America's shield blaze technicolour in the background. Finally, for Spidey, it sinks in: The cavalry has arrived.

A giant-size Hank Pym snags Boomerang, Chameleon and Hammerhead, while the fantastic Mister and Mrs Fantastic swoop in to take care of Electro. Still shaken, Spidey is left somewhat dumb founded while the action evolves around him.

Despite the relief he no doubt feels having escaped certain doom at the hands of his deadliest foes, the call of great responsibility compells the Spider-man.
Fully aware of the Green Goblin's plans for Mary-Jane, which are as he speaks commencing, Spider-man takes leave of the situation, leaving the Avengers to clean up the docks. Captain America offers his full blessing.

The hammer...
Unfortunately neither the Captain, nor Thing, who clobbers Tombstone one last time, notices that one Venom has escaped the scene. Even so, Spider-man, Black Cat and The Avengers prevail!

Statistically we've got a few tricky calls to make. Even though the scene is mostly summarized in relatively few panels, all the heroes will pick up the win stat, even Black Cat, who despite being flash fried, was right in the thick of things for the first half of the fight.

Green Goblin actually left before the fight got underway, so despite his instrumental involvement in setting up the pieces, I think I'm going to have to omit him from any result. As orchestrator, he is similarly omitted in recent entries featuring the Thunderbolts.

Meanwhile, to get to the discussion side of things, I guess when you ask for an array of Spider-man villains, the cosmos provides via Web-Slinging Wednesdays!
It was only in the last entry [Marvel: Heroes & Legends #1] that we discussed the lethal foes shaped hole in the Spider-man universe, and this was a recent example that was unfortunately omitted!

If there's a writer in comics right now who deserves to own stock in this particular corner of the blogosphere, it's Mark Millar. Noone writes big superhero action on the boom-crash operatic scale of Mr. Millar, who is behind comics like; Wolverine, Ultimates, Civil War, and of course, Marvel Knights: Spider-man.

At the time Millar's twelve issue run on the newly launched Spider-man title under the Marvel Knights imprint really split the paying audience. Spider-man fans seemed uncertain as to whether this was an instant classic, or a malicious assault on the characters they hold near and dear.
Many cried for the safety of Aunt May, the peril of Spider-man, and the apparent bastardizaton of Venom and Scorpion, in what many believed was going to be another stinky symbiote marketing ploy.

Granted, the new Venom (with vanilla swirl!) narrowly avoided the hideousness of the publisized squid costume design, but ultimately I think it's proved to be a lasting positive for the Marvel universe. Mac Gargan has found new and unusual relevance post-Scorpion, currently being treated to a thorough handling by Warren Ellis in Thunderbolts [also featuring Green Goblin, as mentioned earlier!].

Under very unique conditions, Millar did exactly what we asked for: He provided a fluid tale that managed to showcase many feature villain stories, while also cramming in some C-snaps of characters like Rhino, and the barely seen Chameleon, Boomerang, and Tombstone even in the issue reviewed here.

Granted, this isn't quite the context we were talking about. Stories like this, and the preceding Batman: Hush storyarc from DC's Jeph Loeb are unique situations.
What we aren't looking for is broken up twelve issue stories that cram as many villains in as possible. What a story like Millar's Spider-man could have provided was a launching pad for the kind of evolving reality we did discuss, and are seeing in a detached form, lest we forget the ill-fated Secret War mini-series.

I couldn't end the review without also pointing out that the art team of Terry and Rachel Dodson contributes greatly to making this one of the most enjoyable Spider-man stories of the decade. Dodson's pencils flow brilliantly, delivering not only the sensuous feminine curves that have made him famous, but also high quality action that walks a line between common Spidey, and McFarlane-style agility-in-excess.

Likewise, Rachel Dodson's confident, thick inks and Ian Hannin (of Avalon)'s cool, smooth colour palette make for a visually exciting take on the script, that's quite easy on the eyes. It certainly requires far fewer graces than the dynamic, but blunt pencil work of collaborator, John Romita Jr.

Anyway, that's it for now. I've been pegging back one more post at a time!
This was of course the all-in special for Web-Slinging Wednesday; featuring the villains of the Spider-man 3 feature film. The last post of the month will be a fifth-week special that promises to be one of the biggest battles posted on Secret Earths, so DO NOT miss it!

Likewise, this particular issue of Marvel Knights: Spider-man also features another colossal battle within it, so do not scratch it off your list yet. Like many other issues, we will revisit it at some stage in the future. In the mean time, I've got to go have a chat with the Beyonder. Because there is -no way- I've been taking orders from a lowly stinking mutie all this time!...

The Fight: 5 The Issue: 6.5

VENOM & SPIDER-MAN versus CARNAGE
The Hatred, The Horror And The Hero: Maximum Carnage Chapter 14, Part 2 (Marvel comics)
Where: Spider-man Unlimited #2 When: August 1993
Why: Tom DeFalco How: Ron Lim

The story so far...
The assembled might of Spider-man, Venom, Black Cat, Captain America, Iron Fist, Deathlok, Cloak, Dagger, Morbius and Nightwatch has finally broken up the reign of terror perpetrated by the Carnage Family, but the fight has not yet been won!

Carnage has escaped death once more, but Venom remains dedicated to hunting down the symbiote spawn of his own alien costume, and destroying it, with or without Spider-man's approval.

Spidey's sense of responsibility brings him to the fight, but as Cletus Kasady becomes further detached from reality, Spidey cannot escape the pull of pity, feeling a responsibility to protect Carnage from Venom's lethal objectives.
Has Spidey done the ultimate good, or sealed his fate by stepping into the crossfire of two of his most powerful enemies? Stay tuned!

Previous Form:
Spider-man (#1): Victorious in team-ups against Blacklash, The Secret Avengers, Dr. Dorcus, Tigershark, The Trapster, The Wizard, Mysterio, Atlantis & Elektra and The Hand.
Black Cat (#43): Instrumental in the final defeat of the Venom Symbiote, after it possessed Thor.
Venom (#97): Has had inconclusive battles with Iron Man & Quicksilver and The Flash.
Carnage: Has not yet been featured on the site.
Tale of the tape...
Strength: Venom 5 (Super Strength)
Intelligence: Spider-man 5 (Professor)
Speed: Spider-man 4 (Olympian)
Stamina: Carnage 5 (Marathon Man)
Agility: Spider-man 5 (Cat-Like)
Fighting Ability: Carnage 3 (Street Wise)
Energy Powers: Draw 2 (Projectile Weapons)


If there was ever a time to question the validity of the fabled Haseloff system, it might be now, true believers! What we're faced with here is one of the strongest cases of the Tombstone factor ever seen on Secret Wars on Infinite Earths.
It might not be enough to tear the internet in half, it might not even change the status quo of the site forever, but it will make for an interesting tape analysis!

I am, of course, referring to Carnage, who made his name with not one, but two major stories that brought together mortal enemies, Spider-man and Venom, in an alliance of common enemies. Such is the value of Carnage, who, despite being statistically on par with Venom, manages to play considerably higher than his weight class.

Carnage brings your basic symbiote abilities to the table. Though he traditionally resigns himself to the red symbiote, he has control over the costume in the same way Eddie Brock always has, allowing for quick changes and retractions.
Unlike Venom, Cletus Kasady favours solid structures over brute strength. Carnage regular morphs his hands into talons, extending jagged structures, and often a giant double-edged axe.

Despite a physique more reminiscent of Spider-man, Carnage still packs a powerful wallop. He challenges even Venom, who is traditionally measured as a fraction stronger than Spider-man himself. This combination of svelt speed, strength and agility makes Carnage a powerful adversary.

Together Spider-man and Venom cover most of those bases. Even so, Carnage continues to represent a fairly major threat during this time period, garnering team-ups between the mortal enemies that are Spidey and Venom not only for Maximum Carnage, but also another team-up previous!

The Math: Venom/Spider-man/Black Cat
The Pick: Venom/Spider-man/Black Cat

What went down...
Having made his escape from Venom and Spider-man, the psychotic Cletus Kasady [that's Carnage to you or I, thank you very much!] returns to places familiar to his own demented childhood. Venom is one the scene to interrupt an episode between Carnage and the ghosts of bullies past, smashing his way through the window as Carnage cries his name in emotional agony.

Venom comes in swinging, clearly riding the momentum gained over Carnage's past few encounters with the heroes. Despite his best efforts to cut the black symbiote down with an axe formation, Venom is easily able to leap the attack, and counter, using his webbing to rip a floor board up and into Carnage's face.

Dazed, Carnage makes his claim as master of death before the wall that bares his name, written in the blood of his victims. Venom laughs in his face, and throws a mighty punch that sends Carnage crumbling through the wall.

Venom snatches at his counterpart's own tendrils, making threats on the various ways he can end his life, when an unlikely savior comes to Carnage's rescue -- Spider-man! Spidey makes his dramatic entrance, colliding with a kick to Venom's back.

Venom attacks Spidey in a rage over his interference. He turns his lethal justice on Spider-man, asking him if he's willing to sacrifice his own life to stand in the way of justice for Carnage.

Spidey dances around Venom's wild punches and swipes, in the same way he verbally dodges the question, as Venom explains the deep personal responsibility he feels for Carnage's creation.
Venom is stunned in his tracks, when Spider-man relates the feelings to much the same way he regards Venom to himself.

At this moment of revelation, Venom is calm enough to notice that Carnage has made his exit under cover of the distraction. Spider-man and Venom again put aside their differences, in agreement that Carnage at the very least needs to be found and contained, regardless of whose methods win the day.

Taking to the city skyline, the web-slinging allies take little time following the screams of innocent citizens to a cemetary below. Down below, they find Carnage using his symbiote manifestations to dig up his deceased mother, believing her to be the only one who won't turn him away in his hour of need.

Venom is unrelenting in his verbal assault of Carnage, which only serves to inspire a new resolve. Carnage lashes out with his symbiote, eventually finding Venom in the talonous claws of his extended hands. Overcome by the strength of a madman, Venom again finds himself in debt to Spider-man, who fires webbing into Carnage's eyes to provide distraction sufficient enough for Venom to free himself with a stiff punch.

Spider-man again interferes in Venom's attack, enforcing his own morals once more on the lethal protector. This time they aren't strong enough to break through Venom's self-righteous charge. He throws a devestating left, that rattles Carnage as it sends him hurtling down to the Earth.

Venom taunts Carnage, remarking on the luck that he didn't accidentally swat him all the way through the back fence of the cemetary into some nearby generators. Using his own tendrills he hunches over Carnage and lifts him by the throat, announcing his intentions to draw out the agony for every life lost.

At this point Spider-man intervenes with more force, leaping between the two symbiote-powered killers to push them apart with his own super-strength.
With Carnage clearly in the weakest of his mental states, Spider-man asks Venom if vengeance is really what's needed, and if it isn't time they felt pity for a man who has clearly been broken for a long time. Spidey appeals to Venom's inner humanity, calling to him to bury his own demons through peaceful means, before becoming as bad as Carnage himself.

Spider-man is probably starting to rethink his empassioned speech as stringy red tenderils wrap around his throat. The red symbiote, like his black predecessor, negates Spidey's spider-senses and drags him back by the throat declaring, "I am... Therefore I kill!"
With that, he tosses Spider-man across the graveyard like a ragdoll. By a bizarre stroke of fate, he comes to land between the graves of Norman and Harry Osborn. No wonder the place looked so familiar...

Carnage flies through the air with his hand in the shape of a blade, calling for 'one for the road' before Venom takes him down. All seems lost, until...

... The Black Cat comes out of nowhere, slamming into the back of Carnage in much the same fashion as Spidey's big entrance earlier in the piece!
Having withdrawn from the hunt for Carnage earlier in the piece, citing her own selfish reasons, Black Cat is a pleasant surprise in what had again devolved into a personal struggle between the spider-characters.

Sick of opposition, Carnage makes for his mother's coffin, deciding the advantage of numbers was cause enough to cut his losses and make a retreat. In his haste, he doesn't even notice that he's running directly into the path of Venom's ample fist.

Venom follows the shattering blow with an uppercut, and follows that yet again with an overhanded punch directly to Carnage's head! As he beats the living snot out of his spawn, Venom waxes on Spider-man's words, debating whether or not Carnage was worthy of vengeance or protection, but in the end, justice calls.

Despite all the talk of torture, and the thirst for bitter revenge, Venom makes one final play for a definitive conclusion to the saga endured over the past weeks. He charges at the stunned Carnage, taking advantage of his false securities, and heads straight for the nearby generators.

The resulting explosion reduces the scene to a bustling inferno, as Spider-man and Black Cat watch-on in shock. Amidst the flames they spy the silhouette of a person, and manage to drag the naked, burned body of Cletus Kasady, whose living symbiote, vulnerable to flame, is nowhere to be seen.

With Eddie Brock nowhere in sight, Black Cat suggests they look for Venom, but quickly follows that if he doesn't want to be found, he'll easily blend into the surroundings. At that moment, a truck leaves the area, carrying in the back a weakened man with a black symbiote, that fades to less conspicuous duds.

The hammer...
I'm going to give the sole victory to Venom here, with the strong assist going to Spider-man and Black Cat. I just don't think you could say Spidey had enough of an impact there to really impress on the result. Maybe if he'd tried killing Carnage, he'd have the stat...

So, this was a bit of a hurdle of an update, given the enormity of it. Though the summary might not have run hugely over the normal entry, the story itself takes place over a good many more pages than even the New Avengers taking on The Hand. [New Avengers #27]

Given the updates we haven't exactly capitalized on the release, but if you're still with us, you might need to be reminded that Web-slinging Wednesdays are dedicated to the villains of the Spider-man 3 movie. This feature, despite also containing a red hot dose of Carnage, is of course to represent the Eddie Brock Venom present in the movie. That's opposed to the Mac Gargan Venom, you'd currently be reading about in the pages of Marvel comics like Thunderbolts.

It's fast approaching 2am as I try to make a last ditch effort before being tied up with dentist appointments again, so I'm at a bit of a loss for words again.

It's interesting to look over the Maximum Carnage story, and how important it is in so many different ways to so many different types of fans. For a lot of casual readers it remains one of the most memorable crossover stories, be they familiar through the thirteen issues of comic themselves, or the hugely successful video game spin-off of the time.

I myself regard both quite highly. For some readers it seems it was a period in which many were infamously 'not reading at the time', which seems to be accompanied by the odd sneer toward the symbiote characters, and the following Clone Saga. Certainly there are criticisms worthy of both stories, but in the long run, I'd like to think Maximum Carnage is exactly what it set out to be -- a damn fun and interesting read.

It was perhaps a story let down by the glut of similar efforts that came out of Marvel around the same time. It must have been less than a year later that things like Spirits of Vengeance and various other stories kicked off, that brought the unlikely, but ever extreme team-ups of characters like Ghost Rider, Venom and Demogoblin to the pages of various comics.

I'm not terribly well versed in a lot of these subsequent stories, but I'd like to think even they have their merit. I guess maybe I'm just a little nostalgic for the days when a wider bredth of characters were regularly featuring across the multitude of titles printed by Marvel comics. This touches back on some of the things discussed in our last review. [Beyond! #3]

Rest assured you'll see more instalments from Maximum Carnage in the future. I really want to get Morbius into the rankings so bad, it's actually a little bit sad, believe me. But, in the mean time, I should probably be heading to bed!

I'd love to be caught back up before the release of Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, but we'll see how we go. Otherwise, stay tuned! Some big things coming at the end of the month in the Punch-Up, plus the remaining entries in the special five-week Web-Slinging Wednesday series!

The Fight: 4.5 The Issue: 6